Genome Roots: Roma from Northwest India

Roots, Branches. Genome Study Points to Roma Origins in Northern India 

Roots. Genome Study: Roma roots in Northwest India

These particular outgrowths are in Maine, but the concept carries: deep, unseen roots, wide branchings.

Consider again Roma roots. The similarity between Roma languages and languages in India is known. That suggests, of course, cultural origins. Now that connection has been buttressed as to a more precise location within India with a genome study by many contributors, see New York Times at Genomic Study Traces Roma to Northern India

Effect of outlawing nomadism. 

As you read the article, however, cringe at the treatment of the nomadic tradition of many Roma: "The marginalized group is still nomadic, often building illegal camps."  Illegal camps? Outlaw camp designation?

Make room for nomads. Why not make room for people to be nomadic in the first place, safe havens for encampments along the way, free of snide illegal-sniffing NYT reporters.  It is as though "illegal" -- once some law is passed -- ends the discussion of who has worth and who does not, whose practices have cohesive, deeply rewarding cultural roots, and which are not worth examining. 

Memorial to the Sinti and Roma of Europe Murdered in National Socialismolocaust Memorial, Germany

Extermination of Roma, Zigeuner, Gypsies

Bring back the term "Gypsies" as Univerally Recognizable - Use with Respect

Roma photographed, Mauthausen Concentration Camp, Mauthausen KZ, Austria

Berlin.  High time. Finally, Germany acknowledges the hundreds of thousands of killed Romany -- Sinti and Roma -- in a new Holocaust Memorial.  See NYT at http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/world/europe/memorial-to-romany-victims-of-holocaust-opens-in-berlin.html?_r=0.  Not all died in the killing camps, of course.  Many were killed in the woods, driven out, bodies in ravines. Jewish people came with written records of births, places; they could more easily be counted.

Crematorium, Mauthausen Concentration Camp, Austria

National Socialism:  That sounds like a euphemism.  National? A harmless word.  Socialism?  Many benefits to that, applied carefully and not exclusively.  Put them together and the horror of the Nazis is not evoked at all.  This is 50-60 years later than the events, two to three generations-worth. It should be clear by now that no one-approach will work anywhere.  See variations in political systems explained at http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/street/pl38/sect2.htm

For the most effective display of the history of Roma slaughter under the Nazis, go to Mauthausen, in Austria.

Memorial to Roma and Sinti at Mauthausen KC, Austria

Roma in Cathar country? Networks for Sustenance: France

In contrast to the wealth reported for some Romanian Roma in Buzescu, who call themselves not Roma but Gypsies or Tsigani, see National Geographic Magazine, September 2012, at 128ff, others could use whatever sustenance assistance for themselves and their animals as are consistent with autonomy and pride. 

Chateau Puivert, France. Cathar refuge.

In France recently, for example, we noted a family at the ticket booth of a known but run-down Cathar castle, Puivert, with living quarters behind.  A child, father in the booth collecting the Euro, then a woman walking up the hill, heavy-laden.  To an outsider's eye, the context would be consistent with Roma.  Small carts were nearby, and several thin horses sought some shade in the castle wall.

Horse for work and probably jousting exhibitions, Puivert Castle, France. Cathar.

Castle yard, Puivert Chateau.  Jousting exhibition course.

Jousting exhibition course, Chateau Puivert, France. Aude Department, Languedoc.

The heat was driving.  Few tourists were there, as the parking is a distance down the hill, but manageable. 

This chateau is overshadowed by the glitz and money at nearby Chalabre:  a commercial venture that we could not even enter because it did not open until noon.  But, from our research and walking around, there is little contemplative there, see http://www.easyvoyage.co.uk/france/chalabre-castle-4925.  Chalabre is a theme park in itself, activities, carefully winnowed education included in the tourist bits that glorify crusaders.  This goes on apparently without analysis of cause, means, issues of a military-political church, disconnected from the principles of its Founder, an institution killing off the opposition. The Albigensian Crusade was more and worse than another adventure in history, where some won, some lost. We all lost with the Albigensians, who were Christian, and fostered tolerance and egality.  Leave each to his or her own beliefs and practices, as we understand it.

 See Chalabre among other exploited Cathar castles at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoOs0IckkxM/.

Point here:  We found a family working to make a living, horses in need of more feed than they can find, a castle that offers more in authenticity and imagination than Chalabre. See Puivert at http://www.catharcastles.info/puivert.php?key=puivert.  How to focus assistance with dignity, if they want it.  Perhaps I misread.
 

Sara La Kali. Church of the Three Marys. Saintes Maries de la Mer. France.

The Three Marys.

The Church of the Three Marys.

Saintes Maries de la Mer, France.  The Camargue.

Sara La Kali, Saintes Maries de la Mer, Camargue, France. Crypt area.

Usually we take time to post photographs of our wonder-filled trips to Europe, sagas of rental cars, no reservations, maps and guidebooks.  This time, however, the Sara la Kali we found in the South of France, the Camargue, at Saintes Maries de la Mer, will not wait. She changes with the season.  Here she is, in the crypt area of the Church, in August, far from the crowds of the May pilgrimages.  We had full access for leisurely thought. We wanted to show the full reverential setting.  See http://www.bonjourparis.com/story/camargue-saintes-maries-de-la-mer-gypsy-festival-m/

The church itself  echoes the theme of threes:  an older building reinforced to serve as a fortress against the Moors years ago.

Saintes Maries de la Mar, Camargue, France


More to follow on the town, the small hotel that had room for us in their inn, to come. Why should someone with no known connection to Roma take such an interest.  Kinship does not require demonstrable kin.

Who else might be Gypsy, Roma? Ongoing interest log.

Who Else might be (or is) Gypsy, Roma?

Assimilation Process for Survival

 

Bill Clinton Gypsy Heritage?

Not a new concept at all.

This is recreational looking-up.  I have not vetted each site, just pass on as an interest the possibly Roma heritage for someone you may know.  Where assimilation may be the only way to survive, we should not be surprised at all that many could and did move, change name, marry into a mainstream culture family, and the culture may dissipate as to Roma roots for that family. See Gypsies, A Persecuted Race, Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies, including England, at http://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/victims/romaSinti/gypsies2.html; http://www.btinternet.com/~radical/thefolkmag/gypsies.htm

I found these sites suggesting individuals with Roma heritage by a search for Rumney, a term I understood was used in England for Travelers; and the listed surname for the Rumney family who appeared on St. Mary's rolls in England with a marriage in 1730, Mitt Romney's forbear. 

Here are some Rumneys, and the Rumney term there is is used for the group. 

• Other uses of Rumney, not referring to the Traveler group, are apparently not Traveler, so the term itself is not definitive one way or the other.  See Rumney VT at http://www.reference.com/browse/Rumney; and an area of Cardiff Wales, see http://www.cardiffians.co.uk/suburbs/rumney.shtml. Rumney NH might be?  see http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/3-rare-gypsy-photographs-taken-rumney-n-h-in-1890

1. Bill Clinton -- fair use quote

"Bill Clinton - born William Blythe III, his dad's side are Scottish Gypsies. While in office he quietly repealed the last of the laws against Gypsies in the United States, and appointed the first Gypsy to be director of the US Holocaust Memorial Council.."  This from Famous Gypsies of Hollywood (a stretch to put Clinton there) at  http://able2know.org/topic/85629-1.

Would this root make Mitt Romney, whose family name had been Rumney in the 1700's, more comfortable exploring this possible heritage as Rumney?  On the other hand, Former President Clinton had his family records sealed, see claim at this forum site, at http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/830936.  Could he unseal them now?

Linkish sites for Clinton, if: The Last of the Gypsy Royals, http://www.gypsyroyals.com/the-last-of-the-gypsy-royals/; Blythe, the Famous Gypsy Family of Scotland,  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/755009/posts

A few of the many others listed at that able2know site --  I cannot recall if I included these in earlier lists here.  This site is a forum, so if I see a disputed identification, I have excluded it.

2.  Pablo Picasso

3.  Mother Teresa 

4.  Johnny Cash

Roots of Romney. Rumney Many Meanings of Romney, Including an Aristocrat. Gypsies, Sheep, Locale. - Other Roots of Romney - Surname of Mitt Romney. A Post Script

Mitt Romney. Roots of Romney.

The Surname Romney first was Surname Rumney, as to Mitt.
Other meanings: 
Sheep (still Roma roots), Locales, a Population of Roma, and Updates.

Add: An aristocrat of Romney name - 
Not of the Mitt branch (Henry Sidney, Earl of Romney) 

Track some Roots of the Name

Update 2012.  This site disavows any connection with, or sympathy with, the ideas and pejorative, self-aggrandizing, causation-ignoring innuendoes of Romney connections to Roma as stated at http://www.capecodtoday.com/blogs/index.php/2012/09/24/romney-s-gypsy-conspiracy-to-take-over-a?blog=214.

Nomadic peoples: valued and should be, and should be allowed place and dignity. Without that, behaviors emerge that are not that of the nomadic culture, but a survival response where their culture and ways are threatened.  See comparative nomadic culture, the Inuit, a film entitled "The Fast Runner."  See http://www.isuma.tv/atanarjuat/ and review, New York Times  June 7, 2002.  Nomadic peoples are the root of Western Civilization, is that so, in that we began Biblically, is that so, and should we not provide room, seek to learn. Honor, loyalty, valued.  Among us, not so.

Flags. How to Hoist with Pride

Surnames and roots. Does your surname in any way affect your attitudes.  This follows up an earlier post here on Gypsy surnames, where we found "Romney" as a word for a clan (?) of gypsies, or Roma.

What does "Romney" mean.  Mr. Romney may be one of these in the ethnic category, with some gypsy or Roma connection to the word, some not.

See the choices: You have your own history with your own surname.  Look into the possibility with other people's names.
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1.  Romney as a Breed of Sheep.

Romney is also the name for a breed of sheep. See fleeces on and off the hoof at http://www.romneywool.com/fleeces.html.

Will voters say Baa? Feel fleeced? Or follow follow follow. Need to look up origin of sheep types. A start: the American Romney Breeders at http://www.americanromney.org/.

Romney, then, from the sheep connection,  are sturdy and meat-producing. See http://www.americanromney.org/b_breedstd_white.html. The sheep originated in the Romney Marshes of Kent, England - see paragraph on the Romney Marsh at #3 here. Were the people thereafter associated?

2. Romney as colloquial, a clan of Gypsy? Rumneys.
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Roma.
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Romney as colloquial. For Mitt's family, the name began as Rumney. Is it merely that?  A search for "romney gypsy" turns up odd references to Romney Gypsies, but nothing concrete. The term is simply used in different contexts, informal mostly.  Later research shows that the name Romney was, in earliest records of the family, spelled Rumney; and that Rumneys was also a name for the Rumnichals, or Romanichals, or gypsies.  Were these specific Romney forbears gypsy?  It was a time of gypsy persecution, ongoing for centuries in Europe and also in England; so a move to find refuge, a kind of refuge theory to explain where the persecuted roma moved, into which new circles, to survive, requires more data than we have; it would not be unusual to move into the mainstream culture, however. Rumneys become Romney.  Or never were gypsies, whatever.  Take some DNA and find out fast.   Origins and Divergence, Gypsy DNA, National Institutes of Health, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1235543/

Mitt?  Swab a cheek?

Most Visited

3. Romney as a bog.

Romney is also a marsh in Kent, England, where there is a tearoom serving scones etc. See http://www.lathebarn.co.uk.

Romney Marsh. The location is on Donkey Street. The Romney breed of sheep came from here - see this long-wool type (new word: flockmaster) at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romney_(sheep).  Romney sheep. Do an images search. Look like these.

Rom.  Here are Rom, the cultural nomadic group whose living and life derive from them, the sheep in Romania, and the Vlach-Rom shepherd.  Connections to Roma ultimately entering England via Kent and Romney Marsh, setting up lives there, bringing traditional ways?  Cultural historians, please find out.

Sheep, herded by Vlach Rom, Romania

Vlach Rom shepherd, Romania

4.  Romney as a language, all its own.

Romney is also a word for the "Cant" that was spoken by Gypsies, a languages others could not understand. See "The Genesis of Anglo-Romani" at Scholarship and the Gypsy Struggle. This is the heading for a Google book online with an enormously long URL -http://books.google.com/books?id=CGWFAQ9RZ0oC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=england+romney+gypsy&source=web&ots=CMpN0NAojx&sig=0cfy0vVMYW8KBwElLNu6HZHxC20.

Do a search for England Romney Gypsy and it should come up. See post here at Gypsies, Roma: Cant.

5. Romney as a road to somewhere; and an aristocratic name as well.

And there is a Romney Road in Greenwich, England,  an original Roman Road. That is where the Greenwich Royal Observatory is. Very long URL, so do a search to see it. Greenwich SE 10. Was this connected at some time with a community of gypsies, or not?

No.  Romney Road is not Romani.

This was named after an aristocrat Romney.  Henry Sidney First Earl of Romney born in Paris 1641:

• The aristocrat Romney is a different family entirely from the Rumneys of Dalton. 
•  Henry Sidney First Earl of Romney was born in Paris in 1641, a/k/a Viscount Sidney of Sheppey, also spelled Sydney, Baron Milton.  
• This Romney was active in the Revolution of 1688 to bar the Catholic James, Duke of York, from succession to the throne of England, see http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/509013/Henry-Sidney-earl-of-Romney.  This Romney also supported the Protestant William of Orange
• "Diary" of Henry Sidney -- see http://www.bartleby.com/218/1022.html

6. Romney is not a traditional surname itself for gypsies. Rumney, or Rumneys, or Romni, was used, however, for the group:  Rumneys, for example.

The word is similar to the word for Gypsies or Roma, but we have not found it as a surname in itself, chosen or used by a specific family. Could it have been used as an adopted surname, when persecuted gypsies moved out of a threatening locale, or economically downtrodden one, to another place to blend in.  The first Rumney, for example, that we find in Dalton (where Mitt Romney claims his roots) is in a marriage record there very late, in 1730. Is that a taking of a new name, to escape difficulties, then an intermarriage and assimilation, or not?

Ask about context: What was going on with Roma in England in that century and after, if not before, that might lead to many numbers converting to the new religion, Mormonism, in the 1830's or so, when it appeared?

Or that would have led to some (how many?) leaving old roots and blending into the mainstream instead. Thomas Rumney the joiner in Dalton: was he one of those?

England, Kent in particular, makes no reference at all in this bland overview, see http://www.kent.gov.uk/community_and_living/gypsies_and_travellers/history_of_gypsies.aspx.  This site, however, also from the UK, is realistic and includes the persecutions, killings, expulsions, see http://www.grthmlondon.org.uk/information/gypsy-timeline/
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Romney as a surname in itself is not listed among the gypsy surnames at this site.  See the other names that appear - http://foclark.tripod.com/gypsy/presentsurnames.html.

Click there for the link to the Romany and Traveller Family History Society and other links.

• As with other families of other groups coming here, the surname ultimately adopted by a family could be one applied by a bureaucrat or deaf clerk in ignorance at Ellis Island, where the place of origin or occupation or some mis-heard version attached to the forms and the use.

• Even in our family, people from Sweden who apparently dropped the plebeian name for children, that would have been "Andersson" for the sons, and Andersdotter for the daughters. That custom, of including the father's name as the surname of children -- were following the naming custom where simple farmers (as opposed to the nobility) just identified their offspring as so and so's son, or so and so's daughter. 

• In many cultures, people take the names of a place, or an illustrious family. Our gang, at least a branch of it descended from the Swedish males with big egos, took the more glamorous name of a place generally nearby -- Osterlund -- East Land.  Or was that a husband along the line, name now forgotten?  Farmers, folks.  From Kajsa Johannsdotter and her Anders to Osterlund

Our gang in another direction added an "e" just to help the post office deliver de letter de sooner de better to the multiple farms, yes, farms, all with people related, in Ottawa. Spell, spell, cast the spell. FN 1

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FN 1

There is this similarity in roots, Romney and Romani and Roma, Rom'nie.

Perhaps, with that similarity in association alone, Mr. Governor Mitt Romney will catch an interest in roots of names, and take a deeper interest in the wellbeing of the uncountried, the immigrant, see Joy of Equivocating, Immigration, the cast-offs, the travellers with lesser cameratic profiles.

If he does this, he should be forewarned: These are dangerous diggings. If you think you are "somebody," guess who you are not.  We find ordinary folk, like most other people, and were not even expecting royalty when we looked back.  But would it be fun?  Sure.  My own birth name stems from (among other untangles) an Old Norse word for "cormorant," or cormorant breeding grounds at rocky shale cliffs, like we found at the Orkney Islands.


The World. A Place to Hoist Many Flags

See Orkney Road Ways, and this new site - ://www.scalf-family.org/HPScalf/Chapter%202.htm. Phalacrocorax pelagicus, the green cormorant. See ://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ONMensNames.shtml. Hardly glamor.

It gets worse. Cormorants throw up a lot. A family of vomitus, are we. See ://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/22/nyregion/22birds.html, so the crocorax in Phalacrocorax must be that. The Croak.

This is hardly a pedestal of ancestry connections. People with horns on, trading in cormorants, vomiting under the aurora borealis. Stereotypes! How do we ever rid ourselves when even our own sense of humor betrays us. Feet of clay. Or in fur boots.

With that in mind, I remain interested in surnames, from all origins, all parts, all occupations, places, deeds. My crowd dispersed (wisely) so I have great respect for those who stayed together.

Heritage, perhaps. Candidate Romney: Immigration Policy of Interest

Update Romney roots 2012.  Romney Anglo-Saxon?  A Rumney?
It is as likely as not that Mitt Romney's roots are Rumnichal, Romanichal.
Look at the history.  DNA?  Would that narrow the choices?
Small swab, please, Mitt. 


Then who pays for it?  The ones who did the DNA on the Obamas?
And who was that? But I digress....

Rumneys, Rumneys everywhere.  That appears to be the old spelling of the family Romney, as in Mitt. The Rumneys of Appleby.  Rumneys of Dalston.  Where else?  The more I look into the history of this family, the bits I have found, the more interested I get in the context of the time:  persecutions of Roma in England, and what might make a group that had to hide, blend, in order to survive, so open to preachers from America with a message of acceptance, a new religion, a new life, Mormonism.  See the chronology at a site with some similarities to this, but a timeline to make sense of it:  FodderSight, Romneys--Rumneys.  Records of St. Mary's, and references in a timeline to the annihilations and absolute rejection of Roma on the Continent, that followed Roma to the UK.

Early, early George Rumneys. Most everybody's geneology starts with Miles and calls him Romney, born 1806 in Dalton. See http://danallen46.homeunix.org/DKAAhnentafel.htm. Go back further than that to find ethnicity. Do we trust the Miles Romney Family Organization? Is an alternate early spelling Rumley? see interchangeable Rumley Romney Rumney at http://www.baxgen.com/webtrees/individual.php?pid=I1729&ged=Baxgen.com.ged.

Even this site calls Miles "English" -- see http://www.wargs.com/political/romney.html.  Not necessarily so.  Look at the St. Mary's records -- and the spelling Rumney, etc. etc.  The name of Mitt's ancestor George Rumley, who married Jane Burrow, given there as Rumley, should be George Rumney, ancestor to Mitt #256 ["George Rumley, b. Colby near Appleby, co. Westmorland, ... 1642, d. Dalton-in-Furness, co. Lancaster, 17 Jan. 1737/8
m. Dalton, co. Lancaster, 11 Oct. 1702"].  Is that so? 

1.  George Rumney, b.1547 Dalston. Wife Ella. Parents of Thomas Rumney born1572, Cumberland, who married Margaret Harrinson 1598. Was he baptized? children: http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/m/a/r/Robert-Donald-Martindale/GENE3-0041.html  Mitt Romney's ancestors -- all Rumneys, no Romneys, Dalton-in-Furness.

The first believed forbear, a George Rumney (name recurs), the one who moved to Dalton, was from Appleby, Westmorland, England.

2.   George Rumney, born 1642, died 1738, http://www.baxgen.com/webtrees/individual.php?pid=I512&ged=Baxgen.com.ged.  Two early Georges and a William are listed at http://www.jaash.com.au/genealogy/nindex.html but there the links break.  Can't access the information. This looks Australian?

Rumney, Rumnichal, Rumneys as a common name for an ethnic group, large population in Appleby then and now .  It is also used in place names:  Rumney Marsh, Romney Marsh; Rumney, Wales. FN 1


Roots of American candidates.  Does it affect policy, should it, how to tell.  Or is it just the olde curiosity shoppe.  It is easy to see if emigrant-immigrant roots are "landed" people.  They own land, there are deeds, and they were probably enrolled at a parish for birth and death records.  Anyone who claims landed lineage, not just the working poor, would be able to show that.  Roma were not landowners traditionally, and would not be on such rolls. On the other hand, Rumneys in Appleby were described (or is that a later revision, now?) as yeomen, farmers. See family members researched at   http://hellofodderhellobuyer.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-romneys-rumneys-of-dalton-romney.html

Then, in addition to whether forbears are landed, is ethnicity.  Romneys raise both questions. Were they landed, with the first recorded person in 1750, that should show in land records.

Are Mitt Romney's roots Anglo-Saxon, as touted by an aide (does Romney state that himself?); or are the roots elsewhere in England, with stems from other places Roma Romany.

It should be easy to find out -- birth and death records pre-1850 or the date of the Romney immigration to America, perhaps 1848?  That would work, unless the family were, as true of so many, the industrial fungible worker-poverty class, no records.  Just clear the air, someone, and find out.

We have found, we think, Romney ancestors in Cumbria, England, Dalton and surrounds, and place of the Appleby Horse Fair and many Travelers for centuries. See http://www.hellofodderhellobuyer.blogspot.com/#!/2011/12/candidates-and-their-own-minority-roots.html.  The Horse Fair is a large gathering of people stemming from or who are Roma.

Are or were any of those forebears of Mitt Romney: Roma, Romani. Gypy.  Travelers.  Roma did serve the Mormon cause in America, with the Perpetual Emigrating Fund using farms to raise funds to bring more people here, and one is shown at Gypsy Sky in Utah, see "Gretchen" who wrote a small blog with photos about such a farm, at this URL: http://monkeyfeet5.blogspot.com/2000/03/sheep-ranch_17.html

• This is a matter of curiosity about anyone's lineage (ours is fully contorted) as well as seeking to find why he has such bias toward favoring Anglo-Saxon heritage.  Is it his own, or his adopted heritage?  Anglo-Saxon or Norman or Other? Somebody can easily find out by going there.  Land records. If none, then itinerant or worker or what, like the rest of us.  The issue of Anglo-Saxon -- Mitt Romney and the microphone -- See http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/romney-aides-cite-anglo-saxon-heritage/story?id=16853252#.UBAleqP7TV8

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We learn that Roma indeed converted to Christianity along the way, some, among other religions adopted or into which some assimilated, see http://www.radoc.net/radoc.php?doc=art_b_history_romanireligion&lang=en&articles=true.

History of Mormonism.  Mormon missionaries to England apparently were the triggers for the Romney ancestor conversion, but cannot verify the nature of the background of any of the claimed ancestors.

A name alone does not prove or even suggest ethnicity without more. Would someone over there look up and document the birth registers, where the graves are, and report if there is an early Romany root? early Romneys, back to (is this so?) 1700's. 
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Does connection, even a remote one, with a beleaguered immigrant group, lead to increased sensitivity to their issues.
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Ask Mitt Romney

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A.  Mitt Romney.  Roma roots suggested by surname
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1. Mitt Romney has a surname, "Romney," with traceable Gypsy-Roma-Romani roots for many families (someone could research his).  See idea threads at Roots of Romney.  See the look into connections between Roma and Mormonism, ongoing, at http://hellofodderhellobuyer.blogspot.com/#!/.  If you have information, or relatives that converted and you can document that, let us know.  It is a fascinating web.
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This presents a recurrent issue in American politics.
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 If someone has ancestral ties to a group of immigrants, or non-immigrants, in disfavor here by prejudice based on history, color or ethnicity, what does that person do to get elected. If desires to help are transparent, is that a problem.  If background is denied, is that a problem.  Mr. Romney, former governor of Massachusetts and a man of vision who enacted universal-type health care insurance coverage there, is a Mormon (always?) and the Mormons are known for their geneological research.  Enter the Mitt Romney dates at Mormon Genealogy Dot Com  and see where it leads.  Will the Mormons include Roma Romani Gypsy roots for one of their shining lights, or is there no Roma connection to this Rom'ne at all. Go vet.


If there is Gypsy-Roma heritage involved, it would make a great PBS documentary of the variety and brilliance in every ethnic group, if access to a ladder with rungs is within reach.  The choices for individuals seeking public office, however, are not so clear where racism and anti-immigration is involved.

We presuppose for our purposes here that there is a Roots of Romney.  Roma connection to Romney. Implications for immigration attitudes.  Do people change religion to avoid stigma? 

B.  Choices for Mr. Romney and any immigrant-descendant:  If he has no Romnie roots, apply anyway as a politician representing government of all the people, by all the people for all the people.

1.  Deny thine ancestors and refuse thy name's roots. Please the angry ones. Live a lie.

2.  Embrace thine ancestors, and see the unique opportunity that thee has to foster good will and understanding about them.  Look how far you, as an individual, came. If you are not a threat because of your origins, need others be.

3.  Duck and hope the issue goes away.  Count on the hidden spinners to spin castigations to silence those who speak in ways that foster rights of all people.

4.  Pretend that the immigration position is solely related to whether the person entered this country legally (that does not mean by invitation implicit in open borders and free employment practices until recently)

Romney and the broad reach of Roma roots becomes more complex in current global and local power struggles, seen in one of America's groups, the Melungeons. away from them in order to be more pleasing to the angry ones.

Does Mitt Romney have the courage and intelligence to Cross the Tea's? Go ahead. Cross the Teas. Cross the T's.

While he is at it, will be dot the i's -  in Immigration, that means applying equity to the legalisms, see below.

For an idea of the complexity of our immigrant background, here is an Islamic site tracing the Islamic origins of a particular group we addressed earlier in the context of a mix of darker skinned settlers in the south:  the Melungeons.   See Islamic origins of "Melungeon" - possibly.

C.  And Mitt Romney CHOSE...

(drum roll, for the big reveal)

1. In 2007, the legality route, exclude the equity balancers to legalism, that make our legal system great, or used to.

  Hard on the undocumented ones. Mitt Romney on immigration in 2007   Let's hear it for national ID cards (and how would that foster participation by Roma, even though legally here);  and no amnesty as the code for ignoring the responsibility for leaving the doors wide open, an open invitation implicit, for entry by anyone, and employers hiring and rentings and licenses granted without a lot of scrutiny regardless, and all the other equities involved)

2.  In 2008, again the legality route sans equity. Pedigree of Mitt Romney, and Legalism Without Equity on Immigration

He specifically fears jihadists (but [pick the terms] Christian evangelical ethnic cleansing militia doctor-killing groups or however those who fear others' ideas, are excluded). Here we particularly welcome research into the Moorish roots of some Melungeons, see again the Islamic site, re Moorish roots of American Melungeons

3.  In 2010 -- where is the equity side, Mr. Romney?  Mitt Romney in Immigration. Legalism without Equity Balance.  Legality without equity balance distorts our legal framework.  Law and equity were blended here, one court able to hear both:  but that is under attack, as equity itself is under attack.

Is Mr. Romney toadying right along with the bury-equity movement? See it at ://www.renewamerica.com/columns/fischer/110409/  No equity in this system, folks, see? No equity!  Mr. Romney at least should know better. Law and equity each have valid remedies, despite efforts of some to ignore the equitable and hope it will go away, or the efforts to use it are underfunded, see Law and Equity: Both Remain  






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FN 1


Everyman's starting point for issues is an encyclopedia: and, if the source is a Wiki, vet carefully. Content can be changed by persons with agendas other than objectivity.  That said, start on the United Kingdom and its ethnic groups, here, Travelers, or Gypsies, at http://uk.ask.com/wiki/Romanichal.  Romanichal, Romnichal, Rumneys, Rumanichal, spellings differ.  But surnames can derive from ethnic designations, so the exploration begins as to Rumney-Romnney.  It is common lore that one Miles Romney converted to Mormonism, and emigrated to America in the mid-19th Century.  But who was he?  His forbears?  When did his family arrive in a traditional English church.  We know of St. Mary's in Dalton;  George Romney the 19th Century painter's wife lived, after his travels, George joined her in Kendal, archives at http://www.cumbria.gov.uk/archives/recordoffices/knrec.asp.

Rumney.  Romney Marsh. Rumney Marsh.  A locale in England, at Kent. A place of many Travelers,  but not exclusively, of course. Find one George Rumney Marsh who married a Native American here in the 17th Century, a/k/a Sagamore George or Wenepoykin, who died in 1684, see  Winchester MA info at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~raymondfamily/wiser/wisfeb06.pdf



 Rumney is also a place in Cardiff, Wales. See http://googlemapsuk.com/wales/Cardiff/Rumney.



4.  In 2011. I searched and got a virus warning, so am signing off to fix it. 

A Pay-Attention List. Arts and Roma, Politics, Updated. Romany Fashion Cycle Returns

Roma in the imagination.  Many think of costume, mannerism, dance, song, traditional settings. Idealizing aspects of a cultural or ethnic group serves a useful purpose if it helps defuse fears of the different, but not if the inquiry and interest stop there. 

The New York Times featured a "Romany aesthetic" in its Styles section, July 12, 2012.  See Joining the Gypsy Caravan.  Apparently, the enthusiasm is not just fanned by outsiders. There is a "youthful cohort" exploring the heritage and joining in its morph into a commodity. There are blogs and posts, in a culture otherwise largely elusive.

I.  Roma in politics.

• Jimmy Marks has just died, see his story as a "gypsy leader" in Spokane, Washington, see http://www.spokesmanreview.com/tools/story_pf.asp?ID=197123, an advocate for family and culture.
• In 2002, there were  Senate Special Committee on Aging, hearings on predators attacking the elderly, including Roma and Travelers, see http://aging.senate.gov/hearing_detail.cfm?id=272113&
• Reference:  Politics in America, 1990: 1347; Steven V. Roberts, “G.O.P. ‘Gypsy Mothers’ Test Their Wings,” 26 July 1981, New York Times: E4.

Is there any interest in the political among emerging and established Roma in the arts.

The Times article is not a political one, but there should have been some reference to the larger community perhaps:  its needs, the relationship of those now in the public view to their roots, or a statement that the community wishes to remain as it is, as they all may differ.  Question remains: what is the political life or concerns as to these people in the arts, film, and fashion spheres. If it is peripheral, that is their choice. I am asking only for information.

• The State Department publicizes Assistance for Roma at http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2010/04/139844.htm. Those, however, focus only on Roma overseas.  What about in-house?
• A Yahoo community-forum site is not often updated, is that so, at http://voices.yahoo.com/a-brief-look-roma-gypsies-america-4212919.html. 
• The Smithsonian presents them as museum pieces.  See http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/migrations/gyp/gypstart.html

Considerations:  fear of having to register to vote, locate oneself in the larger land, desire to stay autonomous, an individual difficult to find by any outsider? 

• Romania. That appears to be the case in Romania, see http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/features/world/europe/romania/gypsies-text/3.  Fear of authorities leads many to subsist without identification.

Still, votes count. So does privacy, and keeping under the radar for safety and cohesion.  How to ensure the meeting of basic needs without intruding into culture.

• Is there any movement among Roma elsewhere to have a voice in government. The European Roma Rights Center recognizes the issues, see http://www.errc.org/cikk.php?cikk=1274.  The 2006 Roma Political Leadership Academy report is not found at the site cited.

II.  Meanwhile, A Roma Pay-Attention List

In hopes that the issue of Roma voice and influence in government may also be important to the already successful and trending, here is a compendium of some current Roma-heritage interested or descended here in the United States arts scene.  Source:  New York Times article, here summarized and highlighted by names.  Anyone who crosses their pathways, perhaps mention?


Roma in Fashion:

• Peter Dundas, Gucci;
• Massimiliano Giornetti, Ferragamo;
• Joseph Altuzarra with his Balkan slant, acknowledging that the insipiriation is aesthetic, interpretive.  Add
• Riccardo Tisci, Givenchy;
• Giambattista Valle, for Margherita Missoni.
• Catherine Moellering, with Tobe Report;
• Stephanie Solomon, Bloomingdale's.  Then visit the more accessible chains offering what we used to call peasant tops and embroideries:
• Patti Hansen, Vogue. Then
• Estrella Martinez at Electric Feathers line;
• Pamela Love's jewelry;
• Audrey Louise Reynolds in art and design,

Roma Websites, Roma Books: 

• Gypsy Lore Society, by Matt Salo.  Going there: first to the book, http://www.gypsyloresociety.org/gypsy-lore-society-publications/books; and then to the papers of the organization's meetings at http://www.gypsyloresociety.org/gypsy-lore-society-publications/books/papers-from-the-meetings. 
• Another book:  Gypsy Boy by Mikey Walsh (pen name), about English Gypsies.  Would that include the Romneys' forbears?  Somebody go check Kent.
• Oksana Marafiota, American Gypsy: A Memoir, at http://www.harvard.com/book/american_gypsy_a_memoir/.

Roma in Music

• Angelina Roz incorporates her Roma heritage, Russian, in her pop, rock music. See video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diG7A9WKkVA. That is more than "rock".  Repeat the run.  More Russian Roma heritage --
•  Gogol Bordello, punk band at http://www.gogolbordello.com/news/; features Ukrainian-American Eugene Hutz.

Roma in Film:

•  Gypsy, showing now in New York, Romany village in Eastern Slovakia. Review at http://movies.nytimes.com/2012/06/27/movies/gypsy-by-martin-sulik-fictional-portrait-of-the-roma.html

Roma in Photography: 

• Gilles Larrain, showing flamenco musicians from the 1970's, and other subjects;  recently shown in Granada, Spain.  See http://www.flamenco-world.com/magazine/fotos/gilles/home.htm;  see also http://www.gilleslarrain.com/
• Alen MacWeeney, showing Irish Travellers from the 1960's, see http://www.alenmacweeney.com/  These are black and white and riveting.

Around the world:  See Hungary, where Roma are some 10% of the population. See http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/06/arts/design/06roma.html.  No change in acceptance as separate, or in offering benefits from assimilation (into what?) --

Literature: Fires in the Dark. An Editor Betrays the Essence

Roma in WWII.  What countries.  

What untrumpeted devastation. 

For a variety of reasons, I am interested in Slovakia, a smaller country in Central Europe, but one with an important history:  how do ethnic controls, exterminations, proceed, become "accepted."  See overview at http://hitlernews.cloudworth.com/roma-gypsy.php./  I am continuing my interest in Slovakia in particular at Slovakia Road Ways.

Has the devastation of this ethnic group, guilty only of its difference from regimentation as the West saw was virtuous (themselves), been appreciated.

• Update:  Forced sterilization of Romany women.  Letter to editor, New York Times today July 5, 2012.  " *** Romany women in Slovakia are forcibly sterilized for racist reasons. *** Letter triggered by forced abortions in China reports, letter by Nancy Northrup, who identifies herself as President and  Chief Executive of the Center for Reproductive Rights, New York. Find the organization at http://reproductiverights.org/en/about-us

1.  Awareness rising, but deflected.
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A fine novel for the beginner in learning about Roma culture, including me, is Fires in the Dark, by Louise Doughty, see http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/307210.Fires_in_the_Dark. 

Hwaet.  The cover there online, is not the cover on my library book, 2004, Harper Collins.  The library book I have shows a tall Aryan looking woman, even with the coins in her braids, with all the features of, say, fair skinned as in Norway; not dark-skinned.  The man looks more ethnically accurate: the man with her less Aryan, and even non-Aryan as in Hispanic or South American.  Why the culture blending, or culture-avoidance?

 Did someone approach an editor after seeing the odd couple, and request, and get, the new cover -- copping out of ethnicity entirely, and showing only a Roma wagon on the horizon.  I would have preferred the change to be this:  a Roma woman, dark-skinned and tall and proud, as in the book.

Fair use: small portion of cover -- commentary on the use of light skin instead of the dark skinned woman in the book. 

Fires in the Dark, fair use portion of cover for commentary, novel by Louise Doughty

2.  Read the book.  Learn what it was like in the years leading up to WWII in the Czech Republic, Slovakia.  And during WWII.  Not to be a spoiler, but the day-to-day accounts of life in the camps is overwhelming.

3.  Point remains.  People with dark skin, for those of us with light skin, are fully human and deserve to be represented as such -- with all the human loves, betrayals, tragedies. What is it to have to "pass" as Aryan in order to survive.   What essential values separate the ethnicities -- and where do the whites fall far short.  Think of that.  Who cuts the corners, is far less "clean", who remains complicit in the name of profit.  On the other hand, do both groups abuse women. Orthodox Jewish scholars may justify their lack of employment, working for others, on religious ground.  Is the Roma refusal, or at least reluctance, to work for others, but to be self-sufficient, admirable? Of course.  How do we "frame" the other.

4.  Enjoy, then report what other covers you find. I understand from the book jacket that Louise Doughty has Roma in her family ancestry.  Editors betray with their covers. What editors do may not reflect the author's preferences for integrity, but only profit.

5.  What European countries also foster human trafficking, including of Roma.  I saw the sign, in English, in one of Slovakia's rural areas, for a farm for such activities.  What persons of Slavic-non-Slavic ethnic origin are kept there. What are the roots of our religious and cultural customs that promote that. See also http://www.slovakiaroadway.blogspot.com

Rom: Survival, role of secrecy, surname adoption

Provided: cross-index of topics relevant to Roma, particularly in Britain.
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This focus on Britain stems from an interest in the immigrant roots of our American politicians, and noting the similarity of Mitt Romney the Candidate and England Road Ways  Romneys in Cumbria, were they also from the town in Kent, and Romany Roma Romanichal, etc.  If there is a connection, how might knowledge of those backgrounds aid the originating groups, in a transparent, common-good way. See also England Road Ways' Roma in Leeds, England.  

For modern  Romneys, the name "Rumney" is consistently used in earlier days, part of the Rumnichal heritage.  For a start, see Wiki and then vet sources, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanichal . Wiki as a start is fine, not for conclusions without vetting.
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Tracking the Romney name, was it Romany at one time (surnames were often adopted in the locality for protection), or will anyone ever know as to this family.  Our conclusion so far is that no clear connection has shown yet; but the search for surname roots opened other historical, ethnic interests that have overflowed from this site, Gypsies Roma, to others.
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With an election season in the United States, and a Romney, who is also a Mormon, we looked at who converted to Mormonism from England -- its most fruitful source.  And explored possible roots of Romney to Romany, nothing conclusive from what we have seen.
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Timeline for the name Romney so far, Rumenea, Rominel: sites listed below; and for other concepts relevant to the Roma experience:
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Celts, others in Britain, 600 BC- 50AD http://www.britainexpress.com/History/Celtic_Britain.htm; re Britons, see http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/peoples_01.shtml

Romans invade Britain 43AD, including at Kent, http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/1000piece-puzzle-may-unlock-secrets-to-the-roman-conquest-of-britain-6287730.html.  Thereafter, Angles and Saxons and Jutes also move over the channel to Britain, during Roman times http://www.btinternet.com/~timeref/saxons1.htm
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Romans leave Britain 410 AD http://www.historyonthenet.com/Chronology/timelineroman.htm
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1.  600's -- Romney, town and Marsh, Kent, southern England, tip toward France.  This area was called Rumenea, Saxon fold. See http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/Kent/towns/Romney.html
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2.  1000-1100 -- Area became known as Romanel, after the Norman conquest, from France into England 1066 (William the Conqueror; Romanel from the name of one such invader).  Or is it earlier, before the Saxons even, derived from the Romans at Romanel Marsh, all preceding by centuries and millennia the arrival of gypsy Romanichal, Romany.
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3.  1500's -- first Roma arrive in Britain, Gypsies from mistaken understanding that they were from Egypt. Origin? perhaps Spain, Ireland where they had entered earlier?  There were already nomadic groups in Kent, see http://www.kent.gov.uk/community_and_living/gypsies_and_travellers/history_of_gypsies.aspx.  Thereafter, influx and events, http://www.grthm.co.uk/timeline.php
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4.  1530 -- Act of Parliament requiring all gypsies to leave -- immediately. Many went into the New Forest, Hampshire, http://www.newforestromanygypsytraveller.co.uk/history1.html
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5.  Policies of policing, how the mindset spreads, see concept at http://www.sassafrastree.blogspot.com/#!http://sassafrastree.blogspot.com/2011/03/domestic-gendarmism-gendarmes-over.html
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6.  Role of perpetuating dependency, particularly where a people value their autonomy so highly, http://www.plainmeaning.blogspot.com/#!http://plainmeaning.blogspot.com/2012/01/dependency-is-humiliating.html
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7.  Assuming local names, other secrecy steps needed for survival, identity; this site re Scotland examples, http://gypsyjib.wetpaint.com/page/Scottish+Gypsies.  English Romanies also traveled to Scotland. See photos and surnames at that site.  Names remaining Gypsy (not names of those originally Gypsy who adopted local names instead), see Romany Routes, Journal of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society,  http://website.lineone.net/~rtfhs/journal.html
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8.  1840's -- Mormon missionaries arrive in Britain, the new religion having been founded in 1830 and met with persecution in America, see business model for processing converts, http://martinlutherstove.blogspot.com/#!/2012/01/mormon-converts-19th-c-owned-by-company.html

1850's -- Romanichals, English gypsies, start coming to America, see http://gypsyjib.wetpaint.com/page/Arrival+of+Gypsies+in+America.  

Assimilate or stay distinct? 
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9.  Candidates and minority roots: an exploration (we find no clear Romney-Romany connection from sites or records), http://hellofodderhellobuyer.blogspot.com/2011/12/candidates-and-their-own-minority-roots.html#!/2011/12/candidates-and-their-own-minority-roots.html

As with any ancestor-activity, much occurred outside the record books. But as a surname, Romney itself is not seen as a "gypsy" surname but instead references the locale. No way to track who assumed the locale name, as the poll-tax of Henry II in 1377 (predating arrival of Roma) required a surname and many simply took the locale.
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10.  Continuing hold of origins, lessons learned perpetuate, http://sassafrasthicket.blogspot.com/2012/01/steered-by-navels-and-surnames-what-if.html#!/2012/01/steered-by-navels-and-surnames-what-if.html
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11.   Ethnic origins and politics.  Romney-Roma-Romany will remain elusive, and there are roots to Saxons and Normans in similar sounding names.  Romney as town, Romney as whatever. Was there the survival blending of surnames? No way to know.  Still, topic is of interest, see http://www.joyofequivocating.blogspot.com/#!http://joyofequivocating.blogspot.com/2011/10/deny-thy-father-romney-as-roma-other.html