Conditions. Further update, on the poor vs. progress. This is 3/3/08: Read "On the Margins: Roma and Public Services in Romania, Bulgaria, and Macedonia, With a Supplement on Housing in the Czech Republic," by Ina Zoon, Open Society Institute press 2001. Covers denials of health care, lack of adequate housing, and recommendations.
Migrations. Here is a teaching, resource site with an excellent historical overview of the migration of Roma-Gypsies, from the East to the British Isles, and to US and other continents. //www.travellersinleeds.co.uk/_travellers/HistoryEngland.html. There is a timeline, maps, pictures, a great start for understanding the magnitude of the accomplishment of Gypsies - surviving for millennia, migrating, or going on routes within areas, as they kept on the road.
Like any people, move where it may be better. Look at the conditions documented in the Ina Zoon sourcebook, above.
Like anyone's immigrant grandparents and great-grandparents of whatever background, who came here, or to Canada. How stop the human desire for a life with more health, economic security, a place where families can survive over subsistence / persecution level. A water level concept. Always has been. Immigration happens. And it enriches, if others can let it. Look at the children's pictures at the Travellers In Leeds site.
See this article regarding the Romanian Roma population, set to move wherever it is safer, better. See //www.reuters.com/article/sphereNews/idUSL0932609020070909?sp=true&view=sphere.
The article asks, is the European Union any more prepared, or amenable, to sharing abundance or even sufficiency, with those who have neither, and what is the consequence of not so doing.
Us, US, heed. Immigration is a global issue, self-determination drives are a global issue. A finger in a dike cannot last. Right, right?
Wednesday, December 19, 2007
Sunday, December 16, 2007
Romanian Enslavement - 400 years
This from "Bury Me Standing" - look up the importing of slaves to Transylvania and other areas, including Sibiu, 1445, and including by Vlad Dracul, see Romania Road Ways, Vlad Tepes sites. He brought in 12,000 "Egyptians" to Wallachia, where he ruled, and as slaves. Pope Sixtus IV awarded Stefan the Great with more, as booty for Stefan's contribution to crusades against the Turks. Page 174.
Long history of Gypsy slavery there. Then, after the Sultans prevailed and occupied the ports at the Black Sea, it was slave labor that strengthened the areas. Romanian rulers gift each other with Gypsy families, including Mircea the Old, and including Kalderash gypsies. P.177. Did it begin with Tatars, who perhaps already held them as slaves? Any "unclaimed" Gypsy person on the road, read un-owned, could be taken. Page 178.
Then read of the memory of all this in the present social structure of Romania. See Romania Road Ways. After World War II, refugees seeking asylum in West Germany - say 4% from the Gypsy areas - were let in, but of those, only .02 percent were actually Gypsies. The rest got deported back. Page 213. The statelessness of Gypsies. Page 217.
Holocaust: Little mention of Gypsies. See 243. Some 10,000 t0 80,000, p.253, - many never recorded, happened out in the woods, at ridges, no birth records, death records. Just vanished, with eye-witnesses sometimes by chance left to tell. Contemporary politics and structure: see 246. How forced inhumane conditions, plus cultural re-prioritizing, led to mutual exasperation - p.280 ff
The Kalderash. Need to find out more - a dominant group. Sibiu, other, see p.291. More politics 295 ff. Transnational nature of problem, p. 302
Long history of Gypsy slavery there. Then, after the Sultans prevailed and occupied the ports at the Black Sea, it was slave labor that strengthened the areas. Romanian rulers gift each other with Gypsy families, including Mircea the Old, and including Kalderash gypsies. P.177. Did it begin with Tatars, who perhaps already held them as slaves? Any "unclaimed" Gypsy person on the road, read un-owned, could be taken. Page 178.
Then read of the memory of all this in the present social structure of Romania. See Romania Road Ways. After World War II, refugees seeking asylum in West Germany - say 4% from the Gypsy areas - were let in, but of those, only .02 percent were actually Gypsies. The rest got deported back. Page 213. The statelessness of Gypsies. Page 217.
Holocaust: Little mention of Gypsies. See 243. Some 10,000 t0 80,000, p.253, - many never recorded, happened out in the woods, at ridges, no birth records, death records. Just vanished, with eye-witnesses sometimes by chance left to tell. Contemporary politics and structure: see 246. How forced inhumane conditions, plus cultural re-prioritizing, led to mutual exasperation - p.280 ff
The Kalderash. Need to find out more - a dominant group. Sibiu, other, see p.291. More politics 295 ff. Transnational nature of problem, p. 302
Wednesday, December 12, 2007
Black Madonnas. Possible Roma Origin for Some? Or Sara la Kali
Saint Sarah, Saint Sara, Sara-la-Kali. Or a Black Madonna.
See an overview of the stories of the Black Madonna at ://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Saint_Sarah/ There, find that there is a servant to the three Mary's, Mary Magdelene, Mary Salome, and Mary "Jacobe". The servant, perhaps, is Sara la Kali, Sara the Black, in some traditions.
Gdansk, Poland. Sara la Kali, patron saint of Roma; or a Black Madonna?
At first thought, this painting was, to us, a "Black Madonna," at the Cathedral in Gdansk, Poland. See Europe Road Ways Black Madonnas.
As a madonna, however, this one has no child; has the sunburst symbolism usually seen for saints, and then there is a crescent shape beneath, and other signs surrounding. If you see no picture, click on the box and it should load for you.
Rather than being a Black Madonna, is this Sara the Black, Sara-la-Kali, patron of the Gypsies, the same as Saint Sara, or different. Get an overview at Bogomilia, A Site for the Unsung, Sara the Black. This does appear to be Sara the Black, so far.
Needed: a translation for the symbols surrounding the painting.
Sara the Black, Sara-la-Kali, is at the heart of Gypsy pilgrimages in France, at several places. See //www.geocities.com/~Patrin/stsm01.htm, and post at Europe Road Ways Themes - Roma, Black Madonna. The stories suggest she was with the Maries finding the empty tomb. Perhaps an Egyptian servant to Mary Mother. Someone who saved other saints in France. Who was she. See a good summary of ideas at NationMaster, ://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Saint-Sarah#Tradition/ There the name of Mary Salome appears, as one of the three Marys at the crucifixion, and later ending up on France with Joseph of Arimathea. The site notes at ://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Salome-%28disciple%29 that Mary Salome was considered a "disciple" (how is this different from the "apostle" idea?). And in the now lost Gospel of the Egyptians, she is also a "disciple." See Nationmaster.
Wikipedia //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Saw_Three_Ships.has a variation of a Romany carol, from a Roma family in Brazil, for "I Saw Three Ships," with only Joseph and Mary on board; but other legends have Sara accompanying Mary.
See //en. There is an old version with those on board being 'Our Saviour Christ and His Ladye.' Do a search for I Saw Three Ships verses, and there is a Google book at //books.google.com/books?id=yWEDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=%22i+saw+three+ships%22+verses&source=web&ots=QJ7dMkJLtq&sig=D9J6esbp9il5ARtTVfKrfOvH1OA#PPA125,M1.
That "ladye" must mean Mary Magdalene, and that would upset some. That version is also at //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Saw_Three_Ships.
And, as a further update to the Salome common name, is this figure of Sara la Kali a a derivation from the Salome story, the woman healer from the hills in the apocryphal Infancy Gospel of James, see Martin Luther's Stove, James' Christmas Prequel, Infancy Gospel of James. Salome: airbrushed out of theology and history. Appears as a name in Mark, at the Crucifixion and witnessing the empty tomb. And in the banned Gospel of James the Just, the Infancy Gospel of Jesus. There, at our presentation of the gospel as a pageant with dialogue, see Salome as the first to be healed by the infant, the first to recognize him, the first to worship. No wonder Rome rejected it, even though it was buttressed to meet dogma requirements in all the virginity ways. With her fiery hand healed by the infant, the Salome of James' attributed account would be highly motivated to stay close and follow. Did she?
See an overview of the stories of the Black Madonna at ://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Saint_Sarah/ There, find that there is a servant to the three Mary's, Mary Magdelene, Mary Salome, and Mary "Jacobe". The servant, perhaps, is Sara la Kali, Sara the Black, in some traditions.
Gdansk, Poland. Sara la Kali, patron saint of Roma; or a Black Madonna?At first thought, this painting was, to us, a "Black Madonna," at the Cathedral in Gdansk, Poland. See Europe Road Ways Black Madonnas.
As a madonna, however, this one has no child; has the sunburst symbolism usually seen for saints, and then there is a crescent shape beneath, and other signs surrounding. If you see no picture, click on the box and it should load for you.
Rather than being a Black Madonna, is this Sara the Black, Sara-la-Kali, patron of the Gypsies, the same as Saint Sara, or different. Get an overview at Bogomilia, A Site for the Unsung, Sara the Black. This does appear to be Sara the Black, so far.
Needed: a translation for the symbols surrounding the painting.
Sara the Black, Sara-la-Kali, is at the heart of Gypsy pilgrimages in France, at several places. See //www.geocities.com/~Patrin/stsm01.htm, and post at Europe Road Ways Themes - Roma, Black Madonna. The stories suggest she was with the Maries finding the empty tomb. Perhaps an Egyptian servant to Mary Mother. Someone who saved other saints in France. Who was she. See a good summary of ideas at NationMaster, ://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Saint-Sarah#Tradition/ There the name of Mary Salome appears, as one of the three Marys at the crucifixion, and later ending up on France with Joseph of Arimathea. The site notes at ://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Salome-%28disciple%29 that Mary Salome was considered a "disciple" (how is this different from the "apostle" idea?). And in the now lost Gospel of the Egyptians, she is also a "disciple." See Nationmaster.
Wikipedia //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Saw_Three_Ships.has a variation of a Romany carol, from a Roma family in Brazil, for "I Saw Three Ships," with only Joseph and Mary on board; but other legends have Sara accompanying Mary.
See //en. There is an old version with those on board being 'Our Saviour Christ and His Ladye.' Do a search for I Saw Three Ships verses, and there is a Google book at //books.google.com/books?id=yWEDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=%22i+saw+three+ships%22+verses&source=web&ots=QJ7dMkJLtq&sig=D9J6esbp9il5ARtTVfKrfOvH1OA#PPA125,M1.
That "ladye" must mean Mary Magdalene, and that would upset some. That version is also at //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Saw_Three_Ships.
And, as a further update to the Salome common name, is this figure of Sara la Kali a a derivation from the Salome story, the woman healer from the hills in the apocryphal Infancy Gospel of James, see Martin Luther's Stove, James' Christmas Prequel, Infancy Gospel of James. Salome: airbrushed out of theology and history. Appears as a name in Mark, at the Crucifixion and witnessing the empty tomb. And in the banned Gospel of James the Just, the Infancy Gospel of Jesus. There, at our presentation of the gospel as a pageant with dialogue, see Salome as the first to be healed by the infant, the first to recognize him, the first to worship. No wonder Rome rejected it, even though it was buttressed to meet dogma requirements in all the virginity ways. With her fiery hand healed by the infant, the Salome of James' attributed account would be highly motivated to stay close and follow. Did she?
Tuesday, December 11, 2007
Shamans, Daemons and other Guides - "The Golden Compass"; and real Roma, Gypsy Belief Systems
How and why did we evolve from a benign concept of animal guides, companion souls, or daemons; to the malignant. This benign one, the bear, is from our back yard, snacking on sunflower.Then see "progress" - by so-called advanced civilized institutions that morphed the helpful guides into malignant beings, leading us astray, or doing evil unto us.
Here, note the nice bear concept turned into the evil "hairy one," from our collection of copies of old German prints, all now out of print. The new characterization as bad, and "the hairy one," stems apparently from a mistranslation from the Hebrew by Wycliffe - see .angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/Daemon.html.
The bear is also hairy, but that was not bad until later, apparently.
If you see the film, "The Golden Compass," you will find the concept of guide companions to humans fleshed out. And it relates to the concept and location of the soul.
The soul. The soul. Is it inside us or out, open to interference from the outside, or not.
In the film, "The Golden Compass," see //uk.reuters.com/article/entertainmentNews/idUKL115262120071211; the soul goes with the person, but beside or near, with symbiotic responses, reciprocal; the existence of a soul as guide to independent thought, is to be fostered, or suppressed - a theme in the film.
Click here to see another - a fine daemon found at Gibraltar, looking for his human (that to be another movie) and who attached to this one easily - Gypsies, Roma, Gyptians post.
Daemons. Of interest here is the history of daemons, and if they really relate to Roma - since the film also shows Gyptians with daemons. The characters' souls in the film accompany the people in the form of animals that stay close (except for some exceptions) and, in children, can change form. The soul is not internal in the film. The word "Daemon" is used to refer to the soul-animal - it feels the person's pain, as the person feels the pain inflicted on the daemon. Symbiotic.
These can simply be "familiar spirits." See //www.bartleby.com/68/28/1728.html. Do a search for "daemon" at this site, and see the ancient concepts, including Greek and Egyptian - //www.jungcircle.com/muse/plato.htm. It is like a "genius" concept, an envoy and an interpreter. They can be merely intermediaries. See .angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/Daemon.html.
For contemporary Roma belief, see this Czech Republic website on "Religion Among the Roma" at //romove.radio.cz/en/clanek/18906. Read about the souls surviving death, as in many other religions. Souls are also intermediaries, calling to mind the "daemon" concept of such long standing in the world. Their only "saint" is Sara-la-Kali, see
Questions raised: Are animal guides benign or malignant, or need they be either if they are companion souls, and what is the nature of daemons?
Summary: Many cultures tie wisdom of our fellow sentient beings to our own wellbeing. And the term "daemon" has historical ties with benevolence, guardian angels; at least neutrality, as a go-between, man and the gods,. See the Greek and other cultural references here. So, malevolence and fear came later, with institutional needs for them.
Roma, Gypsies. Shamans and animal symbolism also appear in roma belief, see www.journeyfolki.org.uk/FolkArts/SpiritualityShamanism/tabid
CONTEMPORARY AND TRADITIONAL DAEMONS - secular and religious. Several applications.
Computer Daemon: In our computer world, a daemon is a program running in the background. See Unix reference at ://www.freebsd.org/copyright/daemon.html. The site addresses the negative connotations that the term "daemon" or "demon" now have:
The Unix handbook, says the site, says: daemon is the older form of the word, a daemon does not itself tilt toward good or evil, but instead "serves to define the person's character." Other cultures, here the Greek, used the term for a personal guardian angel function - with "eudaemonia" meaning "the state of being helped or protected by a kindly spirit."
So, Unix uses the term to cast itself in that role. Hear! Hear! Well done. If you are not a geek, go to Wikipedia at ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(computer_software).
The "ae" in daemon is a digraph, linguistically. See //www.bartleby.com/68/44/1844.html. If the letters are connected into one form, they become a ligature. See ://www.bartleby.com/68/52/3652.html. You knew that.
Biblical Demons: Azazel is a name used on several occasions. Read about it at at ://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/articleview.asp?Post=100; www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=A&artid=2203. See also Hello, Fodder, Scapegoats post. The history of "scapegoat" and the mistranslation of "Azazel" are addressed there. So much on a mis-application of a concept.
Greek demons. See ://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-149915/daimon. A Platonic sense of demon is as an intermediary between man and gods. See www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/629.
Judeo-Christian. The demon becomes malignant. See www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/629; and //www.angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/Daemon.html
Native Americans. Start on the topic by reading about Native American animal spiritual guide concepts the Manataka Indian Council, //www.manataka.org/page291.html.
Gypsies as Cultural Fodder - A Collection of Literary References As They Come
Some attitudes are conveyed as normal just because they are interjected so casually in other things. We absorb. For example, Gypsies as culturally expendable, of no intrinsic worth, so much "other" as to be easily trod under, without consequence. Fodder. See Hello, Fodder. On Typecasting and Choice: Fodder Role.
1. Novel. "The Archivist's Story," by Travis Holland, Dial Press 2007, at page 157. The place is a dacha, or woodsy vacation house, outside Moscow, about 1939, in the middle of Stalin's purges of authors, novelists, poets - imprisonment, death. The main character is an archivist, Pavel, whose work is to sort through and catalogue works of literary prisoners, those works destined ultimately for the incinerator, and the prisoners also probably to death. We join him with friends on a small holiday. A Moscovite with seniority as to position and privilege arrives, and jokes about a disagreement with his wife on the way: Fair use quote
" 'She thinks I ran a family of Gypsies off the road on purpose. She accuses me of hating Gypsies, which is a lie of course. It's just that I'm not the best driver." Maxim Andrevich slaps the countertop, 'Glasses, if you please, ' he tells Victor (not the main character here). 'Well, where shall we start, gentlemen? Whisky? Vodka?'"
1. Novel. "The Archivist's Story," by Travis Holland, Dial Press 2007, at page 157. The place is a dacha, or woodsy vacation house, outside Moscow, about 1939, in the middle of Stalin's purges of authors, novelists, poets - imprisonment, death. The main character is an archivist, Pavel, whose work is to sort through and catalogue works of literary prisoners, those works destined ultimately for the incinerator, and the prisoners also probably to death. We join him with friends on a small holiday. A Moscovite with seniority as to position and privilege arrives, and jokes about a disagreement with his wife on the way: Fair use quote
" 'She thinks I ran a family of Gypsies off the road on purpose. She accuses me of hating Gypsies, which is a lie of course. It's just that I'm not the best driver." Maxim Andrevich slaps the countertop, 'Glasses, if you please, ' he tells Victor (not the main character here). 'Well, where shall we start, gentlemen? Whisky? Vodka?'"
Monday, December 10, 2007
Andaman Sea Gypsies - Burmese or Myanmar, Peaceable, Disappearing Reality, Compare Fictional Gyptians of "Golden Compass" film?
Gypsies and Water Cultures
Real and Fictional
Update on the Andamans,
The film, "The Golden Compass," see post at Gypsies, Roma, "Gyptians", features a water-nomad Gypsy culture, a tribe on the canals of Great Britain. That apparently is fiction - we find no authority so far for a water-borne Gypsy culture in Eastern or Western Europe.
Such a culture may still exist in Burma, or Myanmar, however. See Phuket Magazine's article on an indigenous sea-nomad people, "Endangered Idyll? Andaman Sea Gypsies Live, Work And Play On The Water, But Is This Ancient Way of Life Now At Risk?" at //www.phuketmagazine.com/html/PM%20Issues/Vol.14.7/Endangered_Idyll.htm.
Andaman.
By way of update (this is February 2010), the Andaman and Nicobar Islands are shown on a map at the BBC's article, Last speaker of ancient language of Bo dies in India, at ://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8498534.stm/.
Apparently, this last speaker of the Bo language of the Andaman Islands was Boa Sr - the Andamans being one of the most "linguistically diverse" areas of the world. The language roots stem from pre-Neolithic times; African roots? The article posits, but has no further information. The Voga site suggests southeast Asia instead. The woman's name is Boa Sr. There is a website called The Vanishing Voices of the Great Andamanese (Voga), see ://www.andamanese.net/. See photos, gallery, read the language phonetically at the site.
With some four main groupings within the Andamanese, and linguistic differences among them, two of the languages had already vanished.
Groups: All but the Sentinelese have contracted outside illnesses from contacts with outsiders
- Great Andamanese - maybe 50 remain, many of which are children, on Strait Island. Capital: St. Blair (this Great Andamanese group is Boa Sr's group)
- Onge - maybe several hundred
- Sentinelese - no contact, resist intervention.
- Jarawa - about 250, live in the forests of Middle Andaman
Burma's Sea Gypsies are The Salons (several spellings -Salone, Salong, etc.)
They refer to themselves as the Moken or Mawken.
Here is an extensive site about this group, known as Sea Gypsies, still found from Philippines to Borneo, and from Thailand to Burma (country names not updated in the article), see ://www.projectmaje.org/gypsies.htm/ This is a compendium of articles.
"Freely roaming the ocean in small boats from birth to death, living simply off its riches, a Southeast Asian people seem as mythical as mermaids. ***"
Are they connected at all with Gypsies, Roma?
No, says ://www.projectmaje.org/gypsies.htm/ The term "Sea Gypsies" instead refers to the nomadic lifestyle.
Cultural Skills; Ecological Wisdom.
Their knowledge of the sea and waves, and signs, led those on shore or able to get to it to flee to higher ground and safety before the devastating tsunami in 2005. See the CBS account, updated from the original in 2005, at www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/18/60minutes/main681558.shtml. Others already at sea saw signs and headed to deeper water and were safe there. Read about the Veddas - they also have deep ecologically sound knowledge, see://vedda.org/1-who.htm.
Beliefs.
They speak of, "the wave that eats people." A Tsunami idea? Then the earth is reborn - like the Noah story? Apparently legends among them warn of seven waves, and the first irregular one brought the legend to life.
Location.
How does this gibe with the Andaman Islands location in the BBC article?
The area is near Kawthaung, at the Mergui Archipelago - or the Surin Islands. People with various names such as Mokken, Selung, Urak Lawoi, Moken, and many other names in the article.
Origin.
They may stem from the forest-dwelling "Veddas" of India, see://vedda.org/index.htm, the home page site for Sri Lanka's Veddas or Wanniyalaeto. There are maybe 2000 left by now, and on some 200-500 boats. There are also coastal Veddas, see ://vedda.org/seligmann-coastal-veddas.htm. More cultures - not only the Moken, but the Veddas - being let go. Shall we wake up here and preserve ourselves?
The Vedda, however, took to the sea for economic reasons, and are distinguished from the Moken, see ://www.projectmaje.org/gypsies.htm/. Regardless of connections to each other, and a no-connection (perhaps?) to the gypsies-roma-romani that migrated from Asia (probably) to eastern Europe, we endanger ourselves when we let any group dwindle and die. Knowledge, lore, perspectives, all needed, is that so?
Language.
Is this the same as the languages noted in the BBC article about Boa Sr?
The language is "Austronesian" with some Thai, Burmese. So much not known. See more info at ://www.trv.net/trv98/culture/gentlepeople.htm. Then see more on the language at www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/18/60minutes/main681558_page3.shtml. Absent from the language are equivalents of "want," or "take," "goodbye," "hello," or "worry." No greetings. Correction on the idea of "take" - the site says you give or take but you do not want, all is give and take? Without separate culpability attached to take?
Can we learn from these brethren of ours, or not. See a "yes" at ://vedda.org/glpieris.htm. If we have nothing to learn from the accumulated wisdom of those who do not accumulate property, if the absence of property makes them valueless, let them go. Go ahead.
Then read this site, by R. Chandrasoma, concerned about romanticizing these non-Aryan "primitives" - the Veddas - site found at at ://www.lankalibrary.com/cul/veddha/veddha_12.htm. The claims are that the last pure Veddas disappeared long ago, those left are fake or so diluted in racial stock (some such concept) as to make preservation meaningless.
Next interest: Southern Iraq's Marsh Arabs. Connected?
Sunday, December 9, 2007
The Gyptians of "The Golden Compass", 2007 film - Concepts
Role in film, "The Golden Compass," for Daemons, Animal Guides. This topic may be new to people just beginning to look seriously at gypsy culture. A belief in animal guides of some kind appears in many cultures world-wide. The concept of animal familiars appears to have a role also in Roma belief, see post at Gypsies, Roma, Gyptians - Daemon information post.
However, given the distinctions and taboos about unclean and clean animals, see //www.tribe-roman-morga.com/religion.html, not just any animal would take that role. Need to learn more here. In the film, the animal guides or externalized souls help define the character, set it in clear perspective. If that is part of Romani religion, not clear yet.
In the film, the demon is kindly when the person is kindly, cruel when the person is cruel.
Here, at Gibraltar, is the brother of the daemon of the film character Mrs. Coulter. He is wondering sadly what went wrong with her anyway, that also pulled bis brother down.
Religion. Good site here, for many topics. Go to http://www.geocities.com/~Patrin/beliefs.htm.
Origin. Where did the Gypsies come from. The name "Gyptians" has been used for Gypsies, and suggests an understanding of origins believed in the past. The Gypsies are tcalled that in the film, "The Golden Comass. In the Middle Ages, Gypsies were believed to have come from Egypt, thus the name "Gypsy." See www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/gypsies.htm. Deeper study, however, shows origins in India. For a comprehensive history, see //www.geocities.com/~Patrin/history.htm. The amount of fact presented in the film depiction, however, is debatable as to the water-life.
Film Gyptians are real Gypsies in important respects. In the 2007 movie, "The Golden Compass," there are Gyptians - a group assuming a role similar to that of Gypsies, traveling in clans, some settled, very much apart, in lifestyle and beliefs, from the mainstream that persecutes as heretics any who think freely. See "The Golden Compass" at any of the sites that come up with a search for it.
Water Culture? Not European.
The "Golden Compass film group of "Gyptians" (from the book series, including "Northern Lights,") live on waterways in England or Scotland, and that apparently makes them fictional. I find no authority for that way of life there, as water people, nomads of the canals, wayfarers, even with the full panoply of Hollywood lineage in the film. See //www.hisdarkmaterials.org/srafopedia/index.php/Gyptian. Use this site also to look up individuals, including John Faa, but check out what is fiction and what is fact - what authority over the Gyptians, Gypsies in Scotland in the 16th Century here, did Faa have. Wikipedia so far says not real, see //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyptians.
Read the British reviews, and news of current political and employment issues regarding real Gypsies at //eupolitics.einnews.com/news/uk-roma-minority.
John Faa - A real 18th Century traditional Gypsy hero in his way, and a character takes on some of his bio in the movie. Hear the ballad at www.contemplator.com/child/johnnyfa.htm. See the post here about Johnny Faa at Gypsies, Roma - Johnny Faa.
The Samoyede or Samoyeds - In the movie, fighting folk of the far north. In real life, Asian nomads whose breed of dog is recognized by the American Kennel Club, see www.akc.org/breeds/samoyed/index.cfm. Read about the Samoyede or Samoyeds and their Dogs at //www.samoyed.org/samoyede_people.html. Here is their ancient migration path across Asia - at //uralica.com/samoyed.htm. More of the culture at www.britannica.com/eb/topic-723912/Taymyr-Samoyed
The taking of Gyptian babies - by the Goblers - those outsiders who took Gyptian children not only from the Gyptians who travel, but from the Gyptians who are "settled" as well, those who do not travel. So - the Gyptians here are divided just as other land Gypsies, into the travelers and the settled.
Stealing children is not a new theme for history or fairy tale, and some have the Gypsies making changelings, another topic another day. For contemporary: See this site for an account of the acceptability of the practice as long as it is for the good of the children, but who decides and on what grounds. To save the children?? //www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/Trefil.htm. See the Romanian orphanage overflow, at this site, and do a search for "gypsy" and a Gypsy child being smuggled, how many more or is this it? at://iwpr.net/?p=bcr&s=f&o=247598&apc_state=henibcr2000
Do see the film - For a change, see Hollywood's Gypsies as heroes. A theme is promotion of independent analysis, conclusions, thinking? Dust plays a role. The special dust promotes free thinking. Interesting idea - A good dust-up. Dust is already part of our language. Made from dust. Dust to dust. Religious. Dust bunnies. The housekeeping daemon. Or, a way to the animal guide concept here - your dust bunny as your guide. Dust R Us. Stardust and Hoagie Carmichael. What is more mainstream than dust? Fairy dust. Do we want our children's thinking to be free of free? Are we so afraid that if they think and research, they may find out things.
However, given the distinctions and taboos about unclean and clean animals, see //www.tribe-roman-morga.com/religion.html, not just any animal would take that role. Need to learn more here. In the film, the animal guides or externalized souls help define the character, set it in clear perspective. If that is part of Romani religion, not clear yet.
In the film, the demon is kindly when the person is kindly, cruel when the person is cruel.
Here, at Gibraltar, is the brother of the daemon of the film character Mrs. Coulter. He is wondering sadly what went wrong with her anyway, that also pulled bis brother down.
Religion. Good site here, for many topics. Go to http://www.geocities.com/~Patrin/beliefs.htm.
Origin. Where did the Gypsies come from. The name "Gyptians" has been used for Gypsies, and suggests an understanding of origins believed in the past. The Gypsies are tcalled that in the film, "The Golden Comass. In the Middle Ages, Gypsies were believed to have come from Egypt, thus the name "Gypsy." See www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/gypsies.htm. Deeper study, however, shows origins in India. For a comprehensive history, see //www.geocities.com/~Patrin/history.htm. The amount of fact presented in the film depiction, however, is debatable as to the water-life.
Film Gyptians are real Gypsies in important respects. In the 2007 movie, "The Golden Compass," there are Gyptians - a group assuming a role similar to that of Gypsies, traveling in clans, some settled, very much apart, in lifestyle and beliefs, from the mainstream that persecutes as heretics any who think freely. See "The Golden Compass" at any of the sites that come up with a search for it.
Water Culture? Not European.
The "Golden Compass film group of "Gyptians" (from the book series, including "Northern Lights,") live on waterways in England or Scotland, and that apparently makes them fictional. I find no authority for that way of life there, as water people, nomads of the canals, wayfarers, even with the full panoply of Hollywood lineage in the film. See //www.hisdarkmaterials.org/srafopedia/index.php/Gyptian. Use this site also to look up individuals, including John Faa, but check out what is fiction and what is fact - what authority over the Gyptians, Gypsies in Scotland in the 16th Century here, did Faa have. Wikipedia so far says not real, see //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyptians.
Read the British reviews, and news of current political and employment issues regarding real Gypsies at //eupolitics.einnews.com/news/uk-roma-minority.
John Faa - A real 18th Century traditional Gypsy hero in his way, and a character takes on some of his bio in the movie. Hear the ballad at www.contemplator.com/child/johnnyfa.htm. See the post here about Johnny Faa at Gypsies, Roma - Johnny Faa.
The Samoyede or Samoyeds - In the movie, fighting folk of the far north. In real life, Asian nomads whose breed of dog is recognized by the American Kennel Club, see www.akc.org/breeds/samoyed/index.cfm. Read about the Samoyede or Samoyeds and their Dogs at //www.samoyed.org/samoyede_people.html. Here is their ancient migration path across Asia - at //uralica.com/samoyed.htm. More of the culture at www.britannica.com/eb/topic-723912/Taymyr-Samoyed
The taking of Gyptian babies - by the Goblers - those outsiders who took Gyptian children not only from the Gyptians who travel, but from the Gyptians who are "settled" as well, those who do not travel. So - the Gyptians here are divided just as other land Gypsies, into the travelers and the settled.
Stealing children is not a new theme for history or fairy tale, and some have the Gypsies making changelings, another topic another day. For contemporary: See this site for an account of the acceptability of the practice as long as it is for the good of the children, but who decides and on what grounds. To save the children?? //www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/Trefil.htm. See the Romanian orphanage overflow, at this site, and do a search for "gypsy" and a Gypsy child being smuggled, how many more or is this it? at://iwpr.net/?p=bcr&s=f&o=247598&apc_state=henibcr2000
Do see the film - For a change, see Hollywood's Gypsies as heroes. A theme is promotion of independent analysis, conclusions, thinking? Dust plays a role. The special dust promotes free thinking. Interesting idea - A good dust-up. Dust is already part of our language. Made from dust. Dust to dust. Religious. Dust bunnies. The housekeeping daemon. Or, a way to the animal guide concept here - your dust bunny as your guide. Dust R Us. Stardust and Hoagie Carmichael. What is more mainstream than dust? Fairy dust. Do we want our children's thinking to be free of free? Are we so afraid that if they think and research, they may find out things.
Monday, December 3, 2007
Gypsies - Contemporary performers - A heritage of Charlie Chaplin, Elvis Presley, Yul Brynner, Michael Caine
Elvis, from my walletElvis - heartpittypat? Not really. The hair was alien to my group, our loss. Rankism.
This from my old wallet growing up, a memorable hint of a lip-curl from a vending machine at an amusement park in the 50's, offered here as a fair use, a gift from Elvis to me, personally - see the signature? There! see .bitlaw.com/copyright/fair_use.html. Elvis apparently has Gypsy heritage - see him and other Gypsies in our era - in "Famous Gypsies" at ://www.imninalu.net/famousGypsies.htm.
There are lists of Gypsy war heroes, Nobel Peace Prize winners, performers, musicians, scientists, writers, state presidents, sports figures, pioneers, journalists, adventurers, members of parliament, clergy, war heroes, fashion designers, and flamenco; and by country of birth. Go to //www.imninalu.net/fG_countries.htm.
And among them, are listed Charlie Chaplin, Elvis Presley, Michael Caine, and others. Someone else please check all these - I have not gone beyond the site.
Roots are good. Surnames can be clues. One of mine puts us with Old Norse words for cormorant, and those birds throw up a lot. The surname "Romney," as in Mitt Romney, may have gypsy roots as a variation of "Rom'nie" and even the word "Romney itself, see Gypsies, Roma and Surnames" here for a walk in that direction. Roots are good because it may start an interest in furthering the interests of particular groups now of interest personally.
Tuesday, November 13, 2007
"Bury Me Standing "- Customs, Contemporary social/economic issues - Countries
The proverb will stay with you: "Bury me standing, I've spent my whole life on my knees,." See "Bury Me Standing, The Gypsies and their Journey," by Isabel Fonseca, Alfred A. Knopf 1995.
For a narrative account of gypsy life, contemporary, from true life, this book is excellent, see review at ://www.shira.net/bookrvws/bury.htm. It is appalling in the cumulative impact of persecution in gypsy life over the centuries. There is no better introduction to the topic of current gypsy life - more below.
Scope. Gypsy groups are in any country where immigrants have moved. The culture(s) stress group unity and self-identification with taboos and norms they do not usually willingly share, and so have survived and declined assimilation. Yet - look at the cost of that survival, in terms of the impoverishment and persecution that others inflict on them. That says more about us than them. Learn a little. Do people travel because they are never allowed to stay anywhere. In some cases, yes. In others, the travel is part of the life. For others, settlement happened centuries ago, and has worked, reasonably. If abundance is what you enjoy, rather than what you have, who has life more abundantly. See what is happening in countries now:
Eastern Europe: Albania, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland-
Read the story of the experiences of Isabel Fonseca, in her book, "Bury Me Standing, The Gypsies and Their Journey," NY Vintage 1996. She lived with various groups, had her own translators, learned much of the language, researched history and records (the enslavement of Gypsies in Romania in particular was recorded in books not yet translated, in some cases).
Romania - a period of newspapers and other focus on the minority Gypsies, but the needs of the majority were so great, the minority again fell away, see p. 143. Government kept issue alive, perhaps as distraction from other issues. Civil rights issues. P. 143. Gypsies as "parasites against the socialist order." Read about the Czacky family, pp. 170 ff. Came back after being run off, status.
Hungary - Paper on "The Political Significance of the First National Gypsy Minority Self-Government, by Martin Kovats, UK at//www.ecmi.de/jemie/download/Focus11-2001Kovats.pdf; the role of Lungo Drom or the "long road" group, founded in 1990 by Florian Farkas, see "Race and Ethnicity, Critical Concepts in Sociology" ed.Harry Gouldbourne, a google book online, search for the Roma parliament.
Spain -"Practical Examples - Employability" at //www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=lungo+drom+Gypsy&btnG=Search
Customs referenced:
1. No euphemism, when someone mentally challenged. Physical disability same as mental. Life is life. Page 36: Candor not considered "brutal." "Among them it was recognized that truth in itself was not painful, only ignorance could bring suffering. Consequently, euphemism was eschewed -- except in (strenuously avoided) reference to bodily functions of any kind." See linguistic license granted to older women, and other use of idiom at p.59.
2. Many have no idea of the larger group of "gypsies" - even other Albanian groups. Little grasp of own history, even though their name in one instance meant "tent-dwellers." The past, unimportant. "As for the present, there was little to be said: there was no work, and they lived on the eggs of their ducks and their chickens, supplemented by the sunflowers and apricots that grew everywhere around." Page 75.
3. Dealings with outsiders restricted, to commerce. Like Jews, they worked for themselves in trade, not as employees of others, or in agriculture for wages. Page 98. The idea of their making a profit was threatening to others in the communist era who "under the communists, expressed their contempt or their despair by doing as little as possible in the jobs that were their birthright." Gypsies and Jews as migrant middlemen. But as to Gypsies, their work came to be valued, but they were also enslaved, like Blacks. Pages 98099.
3. Marriage - read at pages 134 ff, customs for separation, divorce, when permitted, how, and where the newly single or left woman goes.
4. Outsiders' reactions: the sedentary outsiders strongly against the itinerants, itinerant gypsies skilled at the Swindle, then moved on. No Gypsy would do fortune-telling for other Gypsies, only to get cash from outsiders ("gadje"). Hidden pockets in skirts, " 'Designed for stealing,'" Elena said admiringly." Page 137.
5. Governments settling Gypsies by force. See p. 167. Conditions of the new highrises, flats. Resulting deterioration of social life.
For a narrative account of gypsy life, contemporary, from true life, this book is excellent, see review at ://www.shira.net/bookrvws/bury.htm. It is appalling in the cumulative impact of persecution in gypsy life over the centuries. There is no better introduction to the topic of current gypsy life - more below.
Scope. Gypsy groups are in any country where immigrants have moved. The culture(s) stress group unity and self-identification with taboos and norms they do not usually willingly share, and so have survived and declined assimilation. Yet - look at the cost of that survival, in terms of the impoverishment and persecution that others inflict on them. That says more about us than them. Learn a little. Do people travel because they are never allowed to stay anywhere. In some cases, yes. In others, the travel is part of the life. For others, settlement happened centuries ago, and has worked, reasonably. If abundance is what you enjoy, rather than what you have, who has life more abundantly. See what is happening in countries now:
Eastern Europe: Albania, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland-
Read the story of the experiences of Isabel Fonseca, in her book, "Bury Me Standing, The Gypsies and Their Journey," NY Vintage 1996. She lived with various groups, had her own translators, learned much of the language, researched history and records (the enslavement of Gypsies in Romania in particular was recorded in books not yet translated, in some cases).
Romania - a period of newspapers and other focus on the minority Gypsies, but the needs of the majority were so great, the minority again fell away, see p. 143. Government kept issue alive, perhaps as distraction from other issues. Civil rights issues. P. 143. Gypsies as "parasites against the socialist order." Read about the Czacky family, pp. 170 ff. Came back after being run off, status.
Hungary - Paper on "The Political Significance of the First National Gypsy Minority Self-Government, by Martin Kovats, UK at//www.ecmi.de/jemie/download/Focus11-2001Kovats.pdf; the role of Lungo Drom or the "long road" group, founded in 1990 by Florian Farkas, see "Race and Ethnicity, Critical Concepts in Sociology" ed.Harry Gouldbourne, a google book online, search for the Roma parliament.
Spain -"Practical Examples - Employability" at //www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=lungo+drom+Gypsy&btnG=Search
Customs referenced:
1. No euphemism, when someone mentally challenged. Physical disability same as mental. Life is life. Page 36: Candor not considered "brutal." "Among them it was recognized that truth in itself was not painful, only ignorance could bring suffering. Consequently, euphemism was eschewed -- except in (strenuously avoided) reference to bodily functions of any kind." See linguistic license granted to older women, and other use of idiom at p.59.
2. Many have no idea of the larger group of "gypsies" - even other Albanian groups. Little grasp of own history, even though their name in one instance meant "tent-dwellers." The past, unimportant. "As for the present, there was little to be said: there was no work, and they lived on the eggs of their ducks and their chickens, supplemented by the sunflowers and apricots that grew everywhere around." Page 75.
3. Dealings with outsiders restricted, to commerce. Like Jews, they worked for themselves in trade, not as employees of others, or in agriculture for wages. Page 98. The idea of their making a profit was threatening to others in the communist era who "under the communists, expressed their contempt or their despair by doing as little as possible in the jobs that were their birthright." Gypsies and Jews as migrant middlemen. But as to Gypsies, their work came to be valued, but they were also enslaved, like Blacks. Pages 98099.
3. Marriage - read at pages 134 ff, customs for separation, divorce, when permitted, how, and where the newly single or left woman goes.
4. Outsiders' reactions: the sedentary outsiders strongly against the itinerants, itinerant gypsies skilled at the Swindle, then moved on. No Gypsy would do fortune-telling for other Gypsies, only to get cash from outsiders ("gadje"). Hidden pockets in skirts, " 'Designed for stealing,'" Elena said admiringly." Page 137.
5. Governments settling Gypsies by force. See p. 167. Conditions of the new highrises, flats. Resulting deterioration of social life.
Genius of the Itinerant, Un-Propertied. Gypsy Survival - Rome falls, Roma survive
Cultural genius: a familiar concept. Each civilization has something.
This was a center for Mithraism, however, and parts of that survive in differing forms in Christianity and the Gypsies. See
And the taboos, customs, do not change. Enforcement of the group over the individual. Isolation and itinerance may also promote some health - customs, not to use others' utensils, care about absorbing into oneself contamination. Customs of washing in running water, drinking from running water, being on the move. Were the Gypsies hit as hard from plague? or cholera and other dangers of density, overpopulation, the pestilence brought by proximity. Read "The Ghost Map," by Stephen Berlin Johnson, //www.stevenberlinjohnson.com/2006/04/the_ghost_map, about sleuthing the causes and transmission of cholera in London 1848. Density, ingestion of others' contamination.
Perhaps travelling was not a help against plague - Gypsies were accused of transmitting it, //www.travellersinleeds.co.uk/_travellers/HistoryPre20thC.; and were accused of carrying plague, see timeline for 1496, at //www.florilegium.org/files/CULTURES/Gypsy-tmeline-art.
That moving about itself has been forcibly changed. Many countries by now have stopped by legislation the traveling of Gypsies, largely out of embarrassment at this uncivilized barbaric behavior, or for fear of them, see "Bury Me Standing, The Gypsies and Their Journey," by Isabel Fonseca, Alfred A. Knopf NY 1995. Ms. Fonseca lived with Gypsies in their communities.
2. Foregoing property accumulation. Claiming no real estate, accumulating no wealth other than as carried by wagon. Possessions now are accumulating, with the settling, for some.
3. Self-sufficiency in trade. Carry on a trade, but work for no other man. That is disappearing in areas with the stopping of the caravans and settlement in highrises. The traveling trades are not available.
4. Linguistic uniqueness. Many surnames have had to be changed to meet the ethnic assimilation efforts of the various governments.
5. Consanguinity. Control of who marries whom; marriage laws. Even with the abuses that can occur in relationships in any culture, the taboos and shame appear to be especially strong in controlling the choices and behavior of a woman in he culture. Is it true that a Roma woman would not turn to prostitution. Does that mean she has no escape at all, or is it a protection, and from what. Takes more thinking here.
6. The sum total: re what is behind the attacks on Gypsies through the years? Culturally, it is anathema. Why we can't we leave others alone. Why the drive to impose and reject or re-form others. The threat of difference must be overwhelming. We are becoming like Rome. Organize and force. Force fails, ultimately, but the wagon wheels - on and on, if allowed. Film to see: "Romani Kris - Gypsy Lore." Just saw it on a website.
What an affront to the West - who instead insist, settle down. Get a little land. Hoard. Get a job. Invest! No tolerance for those who chose another path. Genocide. And Gypsies have been and are targeted for it; all the while developing behaviors and maintaining belief systems that promote its own survival still. See ://www.geocities.com/~Patrin/genocide. Look at the timeline of persecution at this site, "Travellers in Leeds: A Permanent Site for Travellers, Gypsies and Roma" - a history of travelling and killing, banishment, imprisonment, and arranged by country - //www.travellersinleeds.co.uk/_travellers/HistoryPre20thC.html
This look at a cultural genius is not to romanticize the life of gypsies. It is hardship, abuses within and without, and on-the-brink living.
Still - Roma - succeeding where Rome did not. The genius is in survival.
- Egypt - Genius in monumental building;
- Athens and Greece - Genius in the arts, philosophy, government, sculpture, architecture.
- Rome - Genius in uber-organization and overcoming-overempiring those in their way.
Anything with that name still does it.
This was a center for Mithraism, however, and parts of that survive in differing forms in Christianity and the Gypsies. See
- America: Genius in founders of democracy, now in jeopardy.
- Gypsies: Perhaps the least changed in culture over a thousand years - is that true? How did they do it? How did they survive when Rome did not, and America may well not? Is that true?
And the taboos, customs, do not change. Enforcement of the group over the individual. Isolation and itinerance may also promote some health - customs, not to use others' utensils, care about absorbing into oneself contamination. Customs of washing in running water, drinking from running water, being on the move. Were the Gypsies hit as hard from plague? or cholera and other dangers of density, overpopulation, the pestilence brought by proximity. Read "The Ghost Map," by Stephen Berlin Johnson, //www.stevenberlinjohnson.com/2006/04/the_ghost_map, about sleuthing the causes and transmission of cholera in London 1848. Density, ingestion of others' contamination.
Perhaps travelling was not a help against plague - Gypsies were accused of transmitting it, //www.travellersinleeds.co.uk/_travellers/HistoryPre20thC.; and were accused of carrying plague, see timeline for 1496, at //www.florilegium.org/files/CULTURES/Gypsy-tmeline-art.
That moving about itself has been forcibly changed. Many countries by now have stopped by legislation the traveling of Gypsies, largely out of embarrassment at this uncivilized barbaric behavior, or for fear of them, see "Bury Me Standing, The Gypsies and Their Journey," by Isabel Fonseca, Alfred A. Knopf NY 1995. Ms. Fonseca lived with Gypsies in their communities.
2. Foregoing property accumulation. Claiming no real estate, accumulating no wealth other than as carried by wagon. Possessions now are accumulating, with the settling, for some.
3. Self-sufficiency in trade. Carry on a trade, but work for no other man. That is disappearing in areas with the stopping of the caravans and settlement in highrises. The traveling trades are not available.
4. Linguistic uniqueness. Many surnames have had to be changed to meet the ethnic assimilation efforts of the various governments.
5. Consanguinity. Control of who marries whom; marriage laws. Even with the abuses that can occur in relationships in any culture, the taboos and shame appear to be especially strong in controlling the choices and behavior of a woman in he culture. Is it true that a Roma woman would not turn to prostitution. Does that mean she has no escape at all, or is it a protection, and from what. Takes more thinking here.
6. The sum total: re what is behind the attacks on Gypsies through the years? Culturally, it is anathema. Why we can't we leave others alone. Why the drive to impose and reject or re-form others. The threat of difference must be overwhelming. We are becoming like Rome. Organize and force. Force fails, ultimately, but the wagon wheels - on and on, if allowed. Film to see: "Romani Kris - Gypsy Lore." Just saw it on a website.
What an affront to the West - who instead insist, settle down. Get a little land. Hoard. Get a job. Invest! No tolerance for those who chose another path. Genocide. And Gypsies have been and are targeted for it; all the while developing behaviors and maintaining belief systems that promote its own survival still. See ://www.geocities.com/~Patrin/genocide. Look at the timeline of persecution at this site, "Travellers in Leeds: A Permanent Site for Travellers, Gypsies and Roma" - a history of travelling and killing, banishment, imprisonment, and arranged by country - //www.travellersinleeds.co.uk/_travellers/HistoryPre20thC.html
This look at a cultural genius is not to romanticize the life of gypsies. It is hardship, abuses within and without, and on-the-brink living.
Still - Roma - succeeding where Rome did not. The genius is in survival.
Monday, November 12, 2007
In Folktales and Song - and Johnny Faa
The name of Johnny Faa recurs - see the section here, and add this one: site for him at //www.scottishgypsies.co.uk/famous.html.
The name also appears as Fall, Falla (President Roosevelt's little scotty dog?), Failey and Faw, says the site. It also mentions Baillies. If Mitt Romney also turns out to have Gypsy heritage, will he take an interest in the plight of the downtrodden minorities among us? See Romney, Rom'nie as Gypsy surname. Perhaps. Perhaps there is no connection. Need the geneologists here.
1. Gypsies and Folktales. See Gypsy Stories Old and New at The Journal of Mythic Arts News and Reviews at entry dated January 12, 2007. Site at ://endicottstudio.typepad.com/endicott_redux/myth_folklore_fairy_tales/index.html
2. Gypsies in Song. "The Raggle Taggle Gypsies, O!"
Hear this fine lady who said Nuts to her own lifestyle and what it offered. She ran off with them and is very happy there, thank you, and you can take your goosefeather bed and stuff it. Rough summary. See //www.kinglaoghaire.com/site/lyrics/song_350.html. It has a dark side - read at//www.hisdarkmaterials.org/srafopedia/index.php/Faa%2C_John, about her fate - the hanging of Johnny Faa by her aristocratic husband, and then her own imprisonment overlooking the gallows site. How much of this is fiction? Need to check.
3. Hear the Raggle Taggle Gypsies, O!" These are Scots Gypsies. The photo is a glen in Scotland. Imagine a caravan just down that road. Moving.
GO HERE AND THE MUSIC STARTS ON A CONCERTINA AND YOU CAN SING RIGHT ALONG- WITH THE RAGGLE TAGGLE GYPSIES, O!
Music site and its sub-sites:
//www.contemplator.com/child/wraggle.html. This also provides a history from the 18th Century about the ballad. This is the way to teach history - find a ballad, listen to it, look it up, find the references.
Her is a variation, called "Johnny Faa" * at://www.contemplator.com/child/johnnyfa.html; and another variation called "The Gypsy Laddie" at //www.contemplator.com/child/gypsylad.html
Francis J. Child in the late 1800's catalogued British ballads, Irish, Scots, etc., and you get more music here at http://www.contemplator.com/history/epedia.html#child
4. This site includes a verse not included in the earlier ones: a fair use quote - and perhaps the first no-fault divorce when one rides east and the other rides west, one rides high and one rides low. See it at ://www.celticnots.com/music/raggle.html. It is also here: ://www.iol.ie/~murphypj/christy/Raggle.txt. Now that I am looking, I do see it elsewhere.
"Often you rode east when I rode west
You rode high when I rode low
I'd rather have a kiss of the yellow gypsy's lips
Than all of the cashier's money, O."
5. This site excludes the verse with the kiss, oh my, The Baldwin Project, "A Child's Own Book of Verse" - redacted and sterilized according to the author's fears, at http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=skinner&book=verse2&story=raggle.
For adults: When money doesn't do it. Hear the echoing, ancient and very real lure of a midnight mystique attributed to a minority, and when then becomes threatening. Is that a universal? And the magnet of a lifestyle different from one's own - not regimented (in the same way) as the mainstream culture - and what may happen when one rides east and the other is riding west, regardless of money. Another universal?
6. The last verse is excluded here as well - do these exclusions mean, and must there always be, a sexual fear about minorities?? see //www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=skinner&book=verse2&story=raggle
Listen and view on YouTube - here they are and I just haven't time to go on with this particular exploration - ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsMWvuuiEY8
....................................................
* Johnny Faa - this site says he was a Gypsy in Scotland when the Gypsies were banished in 1624, he disobeyed the order and was hanged. See ://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiWRAGYPSY;ttWRAGYPSY.html
The name also appears as Fall, Falla (President Roosevelt's little scotty dog?), Failey and Faw, says the site. It also mentions Baillies. If Mitt Romney also turns out to have Gypsy heritage, will he take an interest in the plight of the downtrodden minorities among us? See Romney, Rom'nie as Gypsy surname. Perhaps. Perhaps there is no connection. Need the geneologists here.
1. Gypsies and Folktales. See Gypsy Stories Old and New at The Journal of Mythic Arts News and Reviews at entry dated January 12, 2007. Site at ://endicottstudio.typepad.com/endicott_redux/myth_folklore_fairy_tales/index.html
2. Gypsies in Song. "The Raggle Taggle Gypsies, O!"
Hear this fine lady who said Nuts to her own lifestyle and what it offered. She ran off with them and is very happy there, thank you, and you can take your goosefeather bed and stuff it. Rough summary. See //www.kinglaoghaire.com/site/lyrics/song_350.html. It has a dark side - read at//www.hisdarkmaterials.org/srafopedia/index.php/Faa%2C_John, about her fate - the hanging of Johnny Faa by her aristocratic husband, and then her own imprisonment overlooking the gallows site. How much of this is fiction? Need to check.
3. Hear the Raggle Taggle Gypsies, O!" These are Scots Gypsies. The photo is a glen in Scotland. Imagine a caravan just down that road. Moving.
GO HERE AND THE MUSIC STARTS ON A CONCERTINA AND YOU CAN SING RIGHT ALONG- WITH THE RAGGLE TAGGLE GYPSIES, O!
Music site and its sub-sites:
//www.contemplator.com/child/wraggle.html. This also provides a history from the 18th Century about the ballad. This is the way to teach history - find a ballad, listen to it, look it up, find the references.
Her is a variation, called "Johnny Faa" * at://www.contemplator.com/child/johnnyfa.html; and another variation called "The Gypsy Laddie" at //www.contemplator.com/child/gypsylad.html
Francis J. Child in the late 1800's catalogued British ballads, Irish, Scots, etc., and you get more music here at http://www.contemplator.com/history/epedia.html#child
4. This site includes a verse not included in the earlier ones: a fair use quote - and perhaps the first no-fault divorce when one rides east and the other rides west, one rides high and one rides low. See it at ://www.celticnots.com/music/raggle.html. It is also here: ://www.iol.ie/~murphypj/christy/Raggle.txt. Now that I am looking, I do see it elsewhere.
"Often you rode east when I rode west
You rode high when I rode low
I'd rather have a kiss of the yellow gypsy's lips
Than all of the cashier's money, O."
5. This site excludes the verse with the kiss, oh my, The Baldwin Project, "A Child's Own Book of Verse" - redacted and sterilized according to the author's fears, at http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=skinner&book=verse2&story=raggle.
For adults: When money doesn't do it. Hear the echoing, ancient and very real lure of a midnight mystique attributed to a minority, and when then becomes threatening. Is that a universal? And the magnet of a lifestyle different from one's own - not regimented (in the same way) as the mainstream culture - and what may happen when one rides east and the other is riding west, regardless of money. Another universal?
6. The last verse is excluded here as well - do these exclusions mean, and must there always be, a sexual fear about minorities?? see //www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=skinner&book=verse2&story=raggle
Listen and view on YouTube - here they are and I just haven't time to go on with this particular exploration - ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsMWvuuiEY8
....................................................
* Johnny Faa - this site says he was a Gypsy in Scotland when the Gypsies were banished in 1624, he disobeyed the order and was hanged. See ://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiWRAGYPSY;ttWRAGYPSY.html
Sunday, November 11, 2007
Contemporary authors, writers, songs, sites - and roots of bury me standing
Meet people and resources today - in addition to the "Zoli" website itself at ://www.colummccann.com/books/zoli.htm - Colum McCann, author.
1. Blog. An adult woman, NE US, on "Zoli" - a blog at //www.gypsygirlpress.net/gypsynews/labels/Zoli.html
2. Book, "Bury Me Standing, The Gypsies and Their Journey," by Isabel Fonseca, NY Vintage 1996 - from the Gypsy saying, apparently, "Bury me standing, I've been on my knees all my life."
See review at ://www.indiastar.com/wallia2.htm. Says that, as of 1996, 12 million Gypsies worldwide, 8 million in Europe. Fonseca is described as a journalist, American, had been asst. ed. of the "Times Literary Supplement."
3. See this Ratdog CD, a protest song, So - "Bury Me Standing" has legs. Lyrics at the Grateful Dead Lyric & Song Finder at //www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/introjs.htm?/~acsa/songfile/BURYMEST.HTM
4. Tales and Stories. Ilona Lakova, at the Journal of the Mythic Arts, News and Reviews, at Endicott, site at ://endicottstudio.typepad.com/endicott_redux/myth_folklore_fairy_tales/index.html
That site also lists as artists and story sources
1. Blog. An adult woman, NE US, on "Zoli" - a blog at //www.gypsygirlpress.net/gypsynews/labels/Zoli.html
2. Book, "Bury Me Standing, The Gypsies and Their Journey," by Isabel Fonseca, NY Vintage 1996 - from the Gypsy saying, apparently, "Bury me standing, I've been on my knees all my life."
See review at ://www.indiastar.com/wallia2.htm. Says that, as of 1996, 12 million Gypsies worldwide, 8 million in Europe. Fonseca is described as a journalist, American, had been asst. ed. of the "Times Literary Supplement."
3. See this Ratdog CD, a protest song, So - "Bury Me Standing" has legs. Lyrics at the Grateful Dead Lyric & Song Finder at //www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/introjs.htm?/~acsa/songfile/BURYMEST.HTM
4. Tales and Stories. Ilona Lakova, at the Journal of the Mythic Arts, News and Reviews, at Endicott, site at ://endicottstudio.typepad.com/endicott_redux/myth_folklore_fairy_tales/index.html
That site also lists as artists and story sources
- "The Roads of the Roma," ed. Ian Hancock, Siobhan Dowd and Rajko Djuric
- Louise Doughty
- Margriet de Moor
- "The Road That Has No End: Tales of the Traveling People" - article in the Endicott Archives
Slovak Law 74- Forced Settlement. The Gypsy "great halt" in the book, "Zoli".
A search for "the great halt" is not productive, so perhaps the phrase is fictional. The circumstance is not. The caravans came to a stop. Forced. "Zoli" refers to the great halt as following Law 74, passed in 1959. See Law 74 an an overview of the Gypsy community in Slovakia, and continuing bias at all levels against them, and suggestions for remedy, at ://www.slovakia.org/society-roma.htm. In the book, see references p. 121, 125. How it was done: the burning of the wheels of the caravans and wagons, at p. 123, 125, the sparks, the reddening iron hoops, the melting nails, the drunken outsiders watching, cheering. It took just three days. Horses shot or driven, requisitioned.
This forced settlement had a huge impact on some groups, others had already settled, most in their own shantytowns. There is one near Levice. See Slovakia Road Ways - Levice, Roma.
Read about the nomadic Vlach heritage, however, and this law and its effect on them, at "Vlach-Roma (Vlachi) in the Czech Republic and Slovakia at //romani.uni-graz.at/rombase/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/ethn/groupscz/cz-vlax.en.xml. That site also points out that there is a difference in complexion between the Vlachi origins and the other, India-Pakistan likelihood. Would like to know more about when and where this started.
In "Zoli," her people refused to be resettled, had to be forced. Zoli at 179. Later, some accepted, probably, but see Zoli at 192, where she says so, being ironic, lying to meet the need of an inquisitor
This forced settlement had a huge impact on some groups, others had already settled, most in their own shantytowns. There is one near Levice. See Slovakia Road Ways - Levice, Roma.
Read about the nomadic Vlach heritage, however, and this law and its effect on them, at "Vlach-Roma (Vlachi) in the Czech Republic and Slovakia at //romani.uni-graz.at/rombase/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/ethn/groupscz/cz-vlax.en.xml. That site also points out that there is a difference in complexion between the Vlachi origins and the other, India-Pakistan likelihood. Would like to know more about when and where this started.
In "Zoli," her people refused to be resettled, had to be forced. Zoli at 179. Later, some accepted, probably, but see Zoli at 192, where she says so, being ironic, lying to meet the need of an inquisitor
Poet, Bronislawa Wajs, Papusza, Papuscha, inspiration for "Zoli"
Papusza. Romany for "doll." Born 1910, give or take, died 1987. Read the brief summary of her life at "Bury Me Standing, The Gypsies and their Journey," by Isabel Fonseca, Alfred A. Knopf NY 1995 at 3-16. Title from Gypsy proverb, "Bury me standing, I've spent my whole life on my knees."
Papusza is the inspiration for the book, "Zoli," a novel about person who happened to be a woman, happened to be Gypsy, and happened to live at a time when her very talent set her apart, and enabled her to be exploited - and her people "settled" forcibly, much sooner. Probably. See //romani.uni-graz.at/rombase/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/pers/papusza.en.xml
Here is one of her songs, translated from the Polish. Branislawa Wajs was born in Poland, see rough overview of her life at ://www.answers.com/topic/bronis-awa-wajs-1, and "Zoli" is from Slovakia. The translator from the Polish is by Polish artist and poet Yala Korwin*- at //www.thehypertexts.com/Bronislawa%20Wajs%20Papusza%20Poet%20Poetry%20Bio%20Picture%20Gypsy%20Poet%20Romani%20Poetry.htm
For a regular person's overview of Bronislawa Wajs' life, see //www.answers.com/topic/bronis-awa-wajs-1
....................................................
* Yala Korwin - I never knew.
See her art at ://home.thirdage.com/Art/y2723k/.
See her photgraph, and her holocaust poetry, bio and more of her art at //www.thehypertexts.com/Yala%20Korwin%20Poetry%20Picture%20and%20Bio.htm.
Her website is at www.yalakorwin.com. Be sure to click on her doodles.
Papusza is the inspiration for the book, "Zoli," a novel about person who happened to be a woman, happened to be Gypsy, and happened to live at a time when her very talent set her apart, and enabled her to be exploited - and her people "settled" forcibly, much sooner. Probably. See //romani.uni-graz.at/rombase/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/pers/papusza.en.xml
Here is one of her songs, translated from the Polish. Branislawa Wajs was born in Poland, see rough overview of her life at ://www.answers.com/topic/bronis-awa-wajs-1, and "Zoli" is from Slovakia. The translator from the Polish is by Polish artist and poet Yala Korwin*- at //www.thehypertexts.com/Bronislawa%20Wajs%20Papusza%20Poet%20Poetry%20Bio%20Picture%20Gypsy%20Poet%20Romani%20Poetry.htm
For a regular person's overview of Bronislawa Wajs' life, see //www.answers.com/topic/bronis-awa-wajs-1
....................................................
* Yala Korwin - I never knew.
See her art at ://home.thirdage.com/Art/y2723k/.
See her photgraph, and her holocaust poetry, bio and more of her art at //www.thehypertexts.com/Yala%20Korwin%20Poetry%20Picture%20and%20Bio.htm.
Her website is at www.yalakorwin.com. Be sure to click on her doodles.
Zoli's cities, areas. Zilina, Poprad, Presov, Martin, Spisska Nova Ves
Spis Castle, SlovakiaTouring with her poetry, and singing.
Zoli at p. 118.
Get an idea of the parallel cultures in Slovakia - The Gypsies, some settled in their own shanty towns at the time, some traveling in caravans. Now see the other culture - the castle, the middle ages, the commercialism, the life that they kept themselves apart from.
Photos from the Zilina area, mountainous, with valleys good for caravans, following rivers. Castles on the ridges.
Here is the huge 13th Century Spis Castle, near the town of Spisska Nova Ves, on a great plain. See ://www.tanap.sk/spiscastle.html. This castle enabled the area to hold off the Tartars, at least for a while. Read about the Tartars, also known as Tatars, from the Russian perspective at the time, at //www.logoi.com/notes/russia/tartar_invasion.
We spent time at Bojnice Castle, not far from the Zilina-Presov area, because it had a ghost festival going on at the time, an annual event complete with a narrative-drama tour of the castle, and a street fair with fabulous food - see Slovakia Road Ways, Bojnice Castle.
Haluski - Cabbage and Noodles
"Cook haluski with hot, sweet butter." Zoli at 47 and many places (p.37, ex) referring to haluski. Delicious: here is a composite of the many recipes online for Slovakian haluski - Take a head of cabbage and slice it into strips, not like cole slaw, but some two inches long and an inch wide. Chop two or three onions, two large or three medium, roughly. Use a stick and a half of real butter, and a package of noodles, medium size, or make your own.
Salt and pepper.
Some add an egg; some use well-rinsed sauerkraut instead of cabbage, some mince the cabbage, some add potatoes. This one makes little drop-dumplings, forcing a batter through holes of a colander or haluski maker, see://www.cooks.com/rec/view/0,1726,155187-240196,00. Here is bacon, eggs/ flour/ and potatoes that you make into a mush for the batter, for the little finger size dumplings, and the sauerkraut
Salt and pepper.
Some add an egg; some use well-rinsed sauerkraut instead of cabbage, some mince the cabbage, some add potatoes. This one makes little drop-dumplings, forcing a batter through holes of a colander or haluski maker, see://www.cooks.com/rec/view/0,1726,155187-240196,00. Here is bacon, eggs/ flour/ and potatoes that you make into a mush for the batter, for the little finger size dumplings, and the sauerkraut
Runic Signs - Finding your way in the woods
"We followed signs -- a knotted wishbone to turn left, a broken twig for a right fork in the road, a white cloth for a friendly farmhouse where we could water Red (the horse) and fill our canteens." Zoli at 29.
Runic signs. Look them up at ://www.symbols.com/index/wordindex-r.html. They appear in Germanic, Celtic and Slavic cultures. See ://www.zielarze.pl/runes.htm. "The Cambridge Ancient History," book by Alan K. Bowman, Peter Garnsey, and Averil Cameron, is online as an ebook. I did a search for runic signs and the book came up. It says the signs originated about the second century, spread, show connections to various cultures, used probably first as invocations, to increase efficacy of a weapon, for example; but also the kind of wood inscribed was significant - birch for fertility, or the rune for the now-extinct auroch, for strength.
Do an images search for rune signs or runic signs to see them.
While traveling, a band of Gypsies:
"...maintained contact with other convoys of the same clan moving along separate routes. They would leave signs at crossroads - a bunch of twigs tied with a red rag, a branch brokein in a particular way, a notched bone - the signs called shpera* among the Polish Gypsies (and patrin,** or leaf, everywhere else, from Kosovo to Peterborough. Fearing the devil's spawn, villagers steered clear of these markers."
Fair use quote from "Bury Me Standing, The Gypsies and their Journey," by Isabel Fonseca, NY Vintage 1996 at 3.
..................
* Shpera - road sign or marking, see Roma-English glossary at www2.arnes.si/~eusmith/Romany/glossary.
** Patrin - marker, leaf, see "The Patrin Web Journal, Romani Culture and History" at www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=patrin, and the meaning of "patrin" as "leaf," and further linguistic offshoots at www.languagehat.com/archives/001314.php
Runic signs. Look them up at ://www.symbols.com/index/wordindex-r.html. They appear in Germanic, Celtic and Slavic cultures. See ://www.zielarze.pl/runes.htm. "The Cambridge Ancient History," book by Alan K. Bowman, Peter Garnsey, and Averil Cameron, is online as an ebook. I did a search for runic signs and the book came up. It says the signs originated about the second century, spread, show connections to various cultures, used probably first as invocations, to increase efficacy of a weapon, for example; but also the kind of wood inscribed was significant - birch for fertility, or the rune for the now-extinct auroch, for strength.
Do an images search for rune signs or runic signs to see them.
While traveling, a band of Gypsies:
"...maintained contact with other convoys of the same clan moving along separate routes. They would leave signs at crossroads - a bunch of twigs tied with a red rag, a branch brokein in a particular way, a notched bone - the signs called shpera* among the Polish Gypsies (and patrin,** or leaf, everywhere else, from Kosovo to Peterborough. Fearing the devil's spawn, villagers steered clear of these markers."
Fair use quote from "Bury Me Standing, The Gypsies and their Journey," by Isabel Fonseca, NY Vintage 1996 at 3.
..................
* Shpera - road sign or marking, see Roma-English glossary at www2.arnes.si/~eusmith/Romany/glossary.
** Patrin - marker, leaf, see "The Patrin Web Journal, Romani Culture and History" at www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=patrin, and the meaning of "patrin" as "leaf," and further linguistic offshoots at www.languagehat.com/archives/001314.php
Small Glossary - "Zoli" terms - Lady of Cachtice, Chapbookce, Other References - Zoli
Chapbook - a small, self-published booklet or pamphlet, perhaps of poems. See //msms.essortment.com/whatisachap_rlmn. Even you could do one for yourself. Zoli at 94.
Cachtice - Zoli was given a book as a child, "The Lady of Cachtice." Soli 54. We think that here is the Castle Cachtice, Slovakia - its location and outline match those that are affirmatively identified - we passed by at that location, looked up and there was this splendid ruin. Do an images check for Cachtice, see the same tower placement, general shape. This may be in better shape, however, so just might not be it. Many castles on clifftops.
Correction - this site shows another side of the castle, and this does not look like it - see://www.slovakheritage.org/Castles/cachtice.
At least this castle gives you an idea of what things were in the area and interested even a Gypsy child growing up - like anyone else.
This one looks closer, but I think it is Spis Castle, not Cachtice.
Now - if only we had known - Cachtice has a gory history. The Lady is 16th Century's The Bloody Lady of Cachtice, serial killer Elizabeth Bathory, and her portrait is on a mousepad even now being sold on eBay.
She tortured people and invented the Iron Maiden, so they say. Read it at Wikipedia and other sources from a search for her.
Further Cities of "Zoli" - Slovakia: Bratislava, Banska Bistrica, Kosice
Continuing our interest in "Zoli" - by Colum McCann
the novel roughly based on the 1930's Roma singer, Papusza *
Places in Slovakia mentioned or central to the book.
See section entitled "Slovakia 2003" in particular
the novel roughly based on the 1930's Roma singer, Papusza *
Places in Slovakia mentioned or central to the book.
See section entitled "Slovakia 2003" in particular
Bratislava, Slovakia: Castle view, from the DanubeOverall country: see Slovakia Road Ways.
Bratislava.
Here is Bratislava, the capital of Slovakia. It is near Vienna - at the western section of Slovakia, just down river on the Danube, and tour boats stop here. See map at ://www.gov.mb.ca/trade/country/images/maps/lo-map.jpg. The tour boats' next stop is Budapest, Hungary. There is the castle on the hill. The old town is right there where the cruise ships are, with its warren of old streets and walls. Gypsies were resettled here, and other towns, in large apartment building blocks, canyons of them, outside the picture's range; and the wheels of their caravans burned so they could not move about any more. See Zoli p______ on the "Great Halt."
The Park Kultury here hosts annual jazz events - very successful. See mention of park, beside the Danube, at Zoli p. 94. And the Tatra Hotel, Zoli at 114, is still there. See //www.hotelclub.net/hotel.reservations/Tatra_Hotel_Bratislava.htm. The Carlton Hotel, Zoli at 115, is now a Radisson. See ://www.bratislava.info/hotels/hotel-carlton/
Banska Bistrica, Slovakia: Town SquareThe town of Banska Bistrica, Square of the Slovak National Uprising.
Note the Marian or Plague Column in the center, in gratitude for being spared in the epidemics, especially I believe the dreadful one in 1715.
Zoli mentions this town at p.___. Have to get page.
Kosice, Slovakia: car showKosice.
Kosice, Slovakia. This is at the far eastern section of Slovakia. This street leads to the square with its large St. Elizabeth Cathedral. The town is at an old trade-route crossroads.
Here is a modern car show, girls, band and all. The Square and street connecting to a lower square are pedestrianized, and this was one of the features that day.
Kosice, Slovakia: St. Elizabeth's Cathedral While we are here, see the splendid landmark cathedral in the main square. St. Elizabeth's Cathedral. Fourteenth Century, named after Elizabeth, the daughter of Charles of Anjou.
It is the largest Gothic Cathedral in Slovakia.
.............................
* "Zoli" by Colum McCann, Random House 2007; Papusza lived in Slovakia, before and during the time of the Fascists. Some reviews stress the plot of the novel as a love story. To me, that was secondary to the life of the person. Here is a collection of reviews: at http://www.amazon.com/Zoli-Novel-Colum-McCann/dp/0812973984/
Monday, November 5, 2007
Roma in Slovakia: Push-cart
This family was deferential in movement, going around our car, downcast eyes. They had a heavy push-cart, with children and belongings on it. This is in Slovakia. No other persons were like them there, although there was a shantytown down the road - just no people visible. It is as though noone wastes time on the road. We finally saw one other man, head averted, was walking a ways past.
There were armed guards at the main entrance of this modest mall area, with a supermarket and gas station there.
See details at Slovakia Road Ways, Roma pos.
The caravans are large enough for living and sleeping. We saw some parked, but not on the roads.
There were armed guards at the main entrance of this modest mall area, with a supermarket and gas station there.
See details at Slovakia Road Ways, Roma pos.
The caravans are large enough for living and sleeping. We saw some parked, but not on the roads.
Saturday, November 3, 2007
Further Western Lit and Gypsies: John Updike
Gypsies in Literature, Gypsies in Arts
.With many sites focusing on well-known Gypsies, such as Charlie Chaplin, here at Montreux, Switzerland, welcome to a longer background narrative.
.
Charlie Chaplin, Gypsy (Roma), Montreux, SwitzerlandA review of John Updike's book, "Drawn to Gypsies, Six Years in the South of France," appeared in the New Yorker magazine in 4/10/06. Read the review at http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/04/10/060410crbo_books1.
.
This is an excellent resource for people who already have a solid grounding in Gypsy culture. That resource was not available to us as we traveled on our own, and researched the culture later. We have no independent experience with the Roma, as John Updike has.
Update: Add to the list of authors focusing on Roma, Jessica Duchen, http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/aug/12/1. She lists her top 10, among which are:
- Carmen (opera),
- Esmeralda (from Hunchback of Notre Dame), and a new one for me,
- Kizzy in a children's book, The Diddakoi, by Rumer Godden, http://www.rumergodden.com/diddakoi.php, story with a bullying theme, see review at http://sarahbbc.wordpress.com/2010/03/18/the-diddakoi-rumer-godden/. In libraries, this can be listed either as adult Fiction or in Juvenile, so look both places. Diddakoi: defined as "Gypsy outside the Romany tribes and of mixed blood", see http://www.diddakoi.com/kay_diddakoi.htm
- Mr. Rochester (Jane Eyre) when he takes on a teller's disguise, and others new to me: here so I can look them up at the library:
- Emil (Fires in the Dark by Louise Doughty, holocaust topic, CZ),
Vlachs. Vlax. Records vie. Gypsies, or not
Vying about origins. See ://www.m-w.com/dictionary/vie. "Bury Me Standing" says that the Vlachs were Latin-speaking; and that they saw the value in Gypsies (this section suggests that the Vlachs were not themselves Gypsies - need to find out more) at p. 177. Then again, there is an earlier record of two "Egyptians" including a Vlach who ordered merchandise in the Balkans (Dubrovnik, Croatia?).
This site recognizes the Vlach origins of Gypsies in Slovakia and the Czech Republic, see http://romani.uni-graz.at/rombase/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/ethn/groupscz/cz-vlax.en.xml.
This one examines their history and culture, as they are in Hungary - Hungarian Gypsies. See ://www.everyculture.com/Europe/Vlach-Gypsies-of-Hungary.html
This site does not recognize Vlachs as Gypsy at all. See "Bury Me Standing, The Gypsies and their Journey," Isabel Fonseca, NY Vintage 1996. It sees them, from records, as indigenous to the area from the times of the Roman Legions, and speaking a vernacular Latin. Fonseca researched records from books not translated before, and not circulated - even now. You have to go to the libraries, ask, wait, hope.
Tracing origins by language. Specific words used in different parts of Europe are followed at this site, pointing out the branches of Romani.
//www.marston.co.uk/RSPP/LUPRSV012P02A00075.pdf, are listed as
1. Northern -
Germany and France - "Sinti"
Scandinavian, Spain, Poland, Northern Russia, Baltic States [association with late middle ages migration, into central, northern, southern, western Europe]
2. Central - Hungary, Burgenland in Austria, Slovak Republic, Czech Republic
3. Balkan
4. Vlax
For the Vlachs, or Vlax, or Vlachi, see an initial overview and photos at Romania Road Ways, Vlachs. See also the Czech Republic and Slovakian Vlachs at http://romani.uni-graz.at/rombase/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/ethn/groupscz/cz-vlax.en.xml.
They are also in Greece, and that is where we photographed one - a shepherd, with his sheep, see Greece Road Ways, Ioannina, Metsovo, Vlachs. And Texas, around the area of Vlassko, see ://www.angelfire.com/tx5/texasczech/Valachs/Who%20are%20the%20Valachs.htm; and ://brunodam.blog.kataweb.it/2006/10/26/xviii-ae-forum-on-aromaniansvlachs/
This site recognizes the Vlach origins of Gypsies in Slovakia and the Czech Republic, see http://romani.uni-graz.at/rombase/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/ethn/groupscz/cz-vlax.en.xml.
This one examines their history and culture, as they are in Hungary - Hungarian Gypsies. See ://www.everyculture.com/Europe/Vlach-Gypsies-of-Hungary.html
This site does not recognize Vlachs as Gypsy at all. See "Bury Me Standing, The Gypsies and their Journey," Isabel Fonseca, NY Vintage 1996. It sees them, from records, as indigenous to the area from the times of the Roman Legions, and speaking a vernacular Latin. Fonseca researched records from books not translated before, and not circulated - even now. You have to go to the libraries, ask, wait, hope.
Tracing origins by language. Specific words used in different parts of Europe are followed at this site, pointing out the branches of Romani.
//www.marston.co.uk/RSPP/LUPRSV012P02A00075.pdf, are listed as
1. Northern -
Germany and France - "Sinti"
Scandinavian, Spain, Poland, Northern Russia, Baltic States [association with late middle ages migration, into central, northern, southern, western Europe]
2. Central - Hungary, Burgenland in Austria, Slovak Republic, Czech Republic
3. Balkan
4. Vlax
For the Vlachs, or Vlax, or Vlachi, see an initial overview and photos at Romania Road Ways, Vlachs. See also the Czech Republic and Slovakian Vlachs at http://romani.uni-graz.at/rombase/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/ethn/groupscz/cz-vlax.en.xml.
They are also in Greece, and that is where we photographed one - a shepherd, with his sheep, see Greece Road Ways, Ioannina, Metsovo, Vlachs. And Texas, around the area of Vlassko, see ://www.angelfire.com/tx5/texasczech/Valachs/Who%20are%20the%20Valachs.htm; and ://brunodam.blog.kataweb.it/2006/10/26/xviii-ae-forum-on-aromaniansvlachs/
"Romney" as a Gypsy language, as is "Cant"
Roots of people are often in the words they use. Look up this book: "Scholarship and the Gypsy Struggle, Commitment in Romani Studies" edited by Thomas Acton; online at this very long URL, or do your own search for gypsies roma romney ://books.google.com/books?id=CGWFAQ9RZ0oC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=gysies+roma+romney&source=web&ots=CMpJWIApnx&sig=E2KfOMzLmm12Te8b60EpQXijLx8#PPP1,M1
In one of the sections, The Genesis of Anglo-Romani, by Peter Bakker, is this section:
In one of the sections, The Genesis of Anglo-Romani, by Peter Bakker, is this section:
- In 1753, a James Poulter distinguishes the language of the Gypsies, Romney, from Cant. "Gypsies are a people that talk Romney, that is a Cant that nobody understands but themselves."
It also means "thieves' jargon," see entry for 1787 Germany, at ://romani.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/files/13_briefhistory.shtml.
The term "Romney" appears in several contexts so far: as a synonym for "Romani," or "Rom'nie," and here as language identifier. The Romani Linguistics and Romani Language Projects, at ://romani.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/files/13_briefhistory.shtml gives a chronology of the search for language roots.
See supplemental post here, Other roots of "Romney".
Here is a site that discusses many different groups among gypsies, suggesting a broader variance in language because they dispersed, took on different roles, trades: The Gypsy Lore Society, at ://www.gypsyloresociety.org/cultureintro.html. This relates to the several groups of North American gypsies, noting that the Irish travelers and the Scottish travelers do not refer to themselves as gypsies. They had their own traditions, keep their distance. There was a substantial wave of immigration around the 1850's to North America, from many parts of Europe and the British Isles.
For more on the language, there is this book (online but only accessible through JSTOR), "The Cryptolectal Speech of the American Roads: Traveler Cant and American Angloromani" by
Ian Hancock, American Speech, Vol. 61, No. 3 (Autumn, 1986), pp. 206-220
doi:10.2307/454664.
Rom and Romni can mean Husband and Wife, see http://romani.humanities.manchester.ac.uk/files/11_names.shtml.
Wednesday, October 31, 2007
Defenses of any Underclass: None, From the System. Poverty, Their Fault?
No Consideration for Extenuating Circumstances.
Poverty as Defense to Crime - Little Recognized
Fault for Retrievals, Takings, Lie with the Individual, Not the System.
Parallels to American black history?
Poverty as Defense to Crime - Little Recognized
Fault for Retrievals, Takings, Lie with the Individual, Not the System.
Parallels to American black history?
Roma, in Romania, retrieving in a dumpRoma at a dump in Romania. Issues of poverty for many. Take what is needed, retrieve what is owed. There is a line in 'Zoli', something like,
"From what is broken, I will make what is required."
Hunger, ingenuity, survivors; and then the other end of the scale - wealth, fine cars and clothes, Roma upper groups, enjoying the casino at Sibiu, Romania, getting out of the fine, big cars, in charge.
In many cultures, the reason for the theft, an extenuating circumstance, see ://www.answers.com/topic/extenuating-circumstances-1may mitigate a sentence. Where an economic imbalance has become part of a system, however, the system may refuse or be unable to see its role in the extenuation. It is easier to recognize a single set of circumstances as emergency, after which the person recovered balance. Not so with Gypsies, Roma. Is this true, that the fault is seen as theirs.
Compare incarceration of blacks in the United States with incarceration of Roma in Eastern Europe, other areas. Parallels. See The Black Commentator at ://www.blackcommentator.com/82/82_prisons.html/ The treatment is said to reflect implicit national policy, approval of disparate treatment. The Roma are not seen in many areas as legitimate citizens.
Like any other group, people divide into gradations, social stratification, even degradation in the status for some. Getting what is needed from a dump is not necessarily a degradation however; it is also a means to remaking, earning a living. One culture's view may not be another's. Is our dumpster-diving so different, any less needed.
In connection with poverty comes to mind another issue -we read, and lines in "Zoli" (pp____ coming) comment that Gypsies were expelled, caravans forced out of towns, and a reason is the accusations against them as to theft. It is said that they stole. Or cheated people. And there are examples of that happening in the book, especially at the close of the novel.
A start on figuring this out. Go to Studying War, at the section addressing roles people take or are assigned in their overall cultural setting. Then, look at how their interactions lead to conflict. within a group, and with others. See an analysis of conflict sliding into violence, other into national and international settings (forcing migrations out), at ://www.zef.de/441.0.html
Poverty also has been used as a defense to crime. See "Shifting the Blame:How Victimization Became a Criminal Defense," by Saundra D. Westervelt, Rutgers Univ. Press 1999. The issue is neither new nor simple. No conclusions here, just raising concerns here so far. Is criminality and theft too focused on the lower strata, where the crime do minimal "damage," but may be more personal --compared to the humungous economic thefts going on higher up, but where it is less personal. Less in the face. Is that so?
Fostering theft, the taking back, or the taking to get what is needed, or the taking in order to regain some self-respect, whatever reason. Including sheer greed and disregard. What behaviors do develop, and where may some kind of responsibility lie, when a group
- is set aside as a virtually permanent underclass,
- identifiable by physical characteristics or custom, and
- targeted easily by others who refuse them assimilation or even acceptance of difference (if the people did not seek assimilation, as the Gypsies did not seek assimilation) and
- are subject to continuing prejudice because the group still can be spotted by physical or cultural difference
a) a society's extractors - each seeking to get what he or chs can for self FN1 - those who victimize others, in the name of the right to self-seek.
b) a society's lifestylers, groups that seek to preserve their financial and social rank in the society - who may well fear others, fear loss, and seek to entrench; and
c) a society's fodder, groups that are defined out of consideration - lose out to others
What does Zoli say and do: Perspective. Look back at Zoli, I am looking for the page____, a Gypsy character notes, as I recall, that a Gypsy may steal a chicken or two out of need; but an outsider would take the whole henhouse and then burn down the place. This is not to romanticize any group. It is to say that fodder defends itself; and also that societies create a need for fodder - a foundation that does not move. Someone is always there. The poor always with us, and shrug, as though we should care.
Elsewhere forms: Allegations of "welfare fraud" The tax games, the exorbitant profits, economic abuse, all the rest - Gypsies - who have developed their own sense of purity against outsiders, in a sense justifying takings, in the same league as takings by higher economic groups and their dodginess. Extractors are in every group, as are all the other groupings. Is that so?
And should it make a difference. Ongoing thoughts. See also "Justifying Justice: Therapeutic Law and the Victimization Defense Strategy," J.L.Nolan and S.D.Westervelt, Sociological Forum Vol. 15, No. 4, Dec. 2000, pp.617-646, at
www.ingentaconnect.com/klu/sofo/2000/00000015/00000004/00229364.
Issue may be more the cycle of abuse. The abused then abuse others. That is recognized in other areas. Look up domestic violence. Apply it here. Also, go to RomNews Network Community@RomNews.com/de. URL at http://www.romnews.com/community/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=41.
Buy a T-shirt there, a dignified black one with white letters, "Gypsy Power."
..................................................................................
FN 1 A society's extractors -- those in any economic or social bracket who get what they can whenever they can. Do they see their job as to look out for themselves, regardless, and they feel unfairly dealt with otherwise, as they look around. If it's there for the taking, including crop subsidies that are not financially needed, take it. Maybe.
Tuesday, October 30, 2007
Roma. History of Persecution. Hate Crimes, Expulsions. Holocaust. Poverty: Survival Responses
Hate crimes
Holocaust
Holocaust
1. How to get at the scope of the persecutions against Roma. Narratives are fine, but timelines may give a better start. Overall fodder background discussion of those in any culture who are designated as fodder, expendable: The Common Good, Who Speaks for It.
According to this site, //www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/oldworld/europe/gypsy.html:
- France - expelled Roma from Paris 1539
- Spain - punitive laws 1492, after the Roma had lived free under Muslim rule
- England - forced out Roma in 1563, under threat of death (travel to Ireland, Wales, Scotland, then back?)
- Hungary, Romania - enslaved many in 14th Century to work the large estates
- Also says 500,000 killed in WWII Nazi camps (figures vary from 300,000 to a million - no birth or death records, figures not consistent in including the non-camp slaughter)
3. The why of persecution and hate crimes - a start.
See a start at ://www3.baylor.edu/~Charles_Kemp/gypsy_health.htm, a site with information to help healthcare providers address needs of eastern European Roma -a cultural history, taboos, health issues and practices. That article gives some clues, from very specific legends, myths.
- Genesis 9:25 quoted there as applying to the Gypsies - (how could that be? Genesis and Roma??) "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants He shall be to his brethren." The West can always find something in its scripture to justify anything. Is that so? Not in the Baylor article, but an observation.
- There is a legend in Balkans that Roma made the nails for the Crucifixion and/or stole the fourth nail, that would have hastened the process if it had been pounded in; so the Crucifixion was made more painful by the theft.
Rankism. Feeds a simple need for an undercaste. Why do cultures need an undercaste. Is it economic, the fear that, if any abundance is allowed them, above survival, it reduces what is available to others; or is it psychological, that if this person is down, at least I am up.
Poverty creates a permanent underclass that then defends itself as best it can, by whatever measures needed. See one analysis, shaky but in process, of groups and their interacting at Studying War. There is pressure to suppress, from governments, to leaders, to people acting to protect their lifestyles and positions on some ladder hierarchy; other behaviors develop in response. Gypsies have often been kept at bottom, at least since the 16th Century, some better conditions before then. Force theft to get the basics, then punish the theft, while withholding the acceptance and tolerance that would enable a a group to do otherwise? Is that it?
4. How did Jews and Gypsies survive at all, given the centuries of hate.
Look at this old text, from 1898, "The Jew, The Gypsy and El Islam," by Sir Richard F. Burton (it says he translated the 1001 Nights, etc,) that details understandings he researched at the time, for these particular groups. It is at ://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDFs/The%20Jew,%20the%20Gypsy%20and%20El%20Islam%20JR.pdf
Scroll down to page 160 ff, give or take. Note the cultural prejudices and derogatory attitude of this colonial era, and then the similarities between target groups, the Jews and the Gypsies.
Both been outcast, had their own customs, and in past times, an overall appearance that was overall different from the "aryan" and other European physical groups, each had its own language, own names.
Survival at all - how could they survive. But the site (again, this is 1898) notes that the wealth that the Jewish groups accumulated in developing financial and commercial skills, and settling down; brought on a corresponding backlash of persecutions and confiscation.
Look then at the poverty of the Gypsy. It actually gave some protection. They survived by language ties and consanguinity, not accumulating wealth and settling down. Full circle. Both were hated groups, opposite cultural responses toward their common enemy, one to become well-to-do, the other in poverty and transience, and continuing persecutions with each surviving in its way.
5. History of events.
At the "The Jew, the Gypsy and el Islam" site, also read of the migrations, reactions, Papal bulls against them, laws, etc. Go to page 200 or so. People have really worked at putting the story together, some things were right, some off base, but worth reading old sources.
Read about Gypsies in Spain, other parts of Europe, Africa, and contrast the state of Islam and Jewish traditions in the same volume.
Read "The Pariah Syndrome, A History of Gypsy Slavery and Persecution" by Ian Hancock, at http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/pariah-contents.htm. Find a detailed table of contents on background, practices in different locales.
Monday, October 29, 2007
Romney - Rom'nie --Surname from English Gypsies? Romnichel. Romani.
Many family tree roots, one main trunk perhaps, but many branchings.
Of all the branchings, which do we choose as our identity.
Does that conscious choice negate in any way
the other branches we elect to ignore,
in order to better ourselves.
Family trees. Romany surnames, see http://www.20000-names.com/gypsy_names.htm.
The Romnichels are a distinct group of Gypsies, with origins in England. Derivations include Rom'nie. Sounds similar to Romany, the term in older literature for Gypsies, or Romani. Or Romney.
They sound alike for good reason. Romana, Romney. Gypsy surnames dating from 1567, see, fair use from the PDF site,
"ROMANA/ROMNEY 1567-1623 (int) Shrophshire, Suffolk) (See Robert Dawson ARITF)", from JJ Gypsy Index PDF.
See also Romney Marsh Gypsies, at http://gogowhippet.com/wordpress/marsh/tag/gypsy/
We have an interest in geneology as it may or may not be evidenced in last names, for recreational thought, and here focus on the last name, Romney. The Gypsy Lore Society addresses the Romnichels or Rom'nie, at ://www.gypsyloresociety.org/cultureintro.html. .
Actual Romneys may well have their own family tradition of origins, but the name Romney - Rom'nie standing alone suggests English Gypsy roots: dealing in draft horses, horses for transporation, horse traders, basket makers and that term included making rustic furniture, and fortune telling.
See this Gypsy Lore Society site for description of this group and many others, along with the trades that the groups specialized in: Scroll down to Romnichel. The information is from a further book's introduction, "Gypsies and Travelers in North America: An Annotated Bibliography," by William G. Lockwood and Sheila Salo, that book linked at ://www.gypsyloresociety.org/books.htm.
Update - here is a young man in Kent, England, who identifies as a "romney gypsey" in a message board entry dated 1/29/06 at ://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/have_your_say/community/romany_voices_archive21.shtml.
Compare the Rom. The Rom were Gypsies not from England, but from Serbia, Russia, and Austria-Hungary says the same Gypsy Lore Society site. Coppersmiths, including "repair and refinement of equipment used in bakeries, laundries, confectionaries...." They also told fortunes. The Kalderash are a Rom subgroup.
The "Black Dutch" group of Gypsies has largely been absorbed into the Romnichels. Same Gypsy Lore Society site, scroll down to "Black Dutch." This group was from Germany, but the term is also used for other non-Gypsy groups apparently. Again, horse traders, basket makers, and many provide to the Mennonite and Amish communities. See Pennsylvania Dutch. Hard to get reliable info on "Black Dutch," says site.
So: the papers already have found an ancestral link between Vice President Cheyney and Senator Barack Obama, ://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/politics/view.bg?articleid=1040896, and this adds a possible Mitt Romney to the ancestral Rom'nies.
............................................................................
In a name. See ://website.lineone.net/~rtfhs/gypsy.html
Other Romani first names: Dangerfield, Cinderella, Britannia, Sabina 9those Sabine women?)
And surnames: Lee (Gypsy Rose Lee?), Ayres, etc. and the site notes that all with those names are not Gypsies, just that Gypsies with those names traveled in England. At Geneology Forum you can join the fray in searching for answers with probably no way of checking what you get. Still, recreational.
Sunday, October 28, 2007
Transportation - Horsecart, Caravan, Wagon, Auto
Not necessarily easy to tell which persons are from Gypsy heritage, and which are impoverished non-Gypsy.
Roma, Poland: Horsecart. How to tell Roma from the poorest of peasants. Our understanding is that Polish peasants are better off, and do not need the horsecart. Is that so?
Horsecarts do not necessarily mean Roma - and we saw few horsecarts on the roads, compared to Romania where they were the rule, nearly none here even on back roads. alone means economic resources, probably. An outsider does not know what to look for.
Horsecarts are mentioned in Zoli, p 75, and as her transportation from time to time, and this is one, in Poland, near Zakopane, by the High Tatra mountains that border with Slovakia. Horsecarts are small.
The wagons are large, flat or with open slanted sides. The wagon picture is from Romania. I do not know if the man is Gypsy or not.
Roma, Romania: Horsecart. Or a Romanian peasant, not Roma? Not clear.
Zoli - book refers to a "Big Halt" law that stopped the nomadic travel some years ago, forcing settlements. Zoli at ____.
See this fine photograph of a caravan in 1911 - at ://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/tradition.htm
Roma, Poland: Horsecart. How to tell Roma from the poorest of peasants. Our understanding is that Polish peasants are better off, and do not need the horsecart. Is that so?Horsecarts do not necessarily mean Roma - and we saw few horsecarts on the roads, compared to Romania where they were the rule, nearly none here even on back roads. alone means economic resources, probably. An outsider does not know what to look for.
Horsecarts are mentioned in Zoli, p 75, and as her transportation from time to time, and this is one, in Poland, near Zakopane, by the High Tatra mountains that border with Slovakia. Horsecarts are small.
The wagons are large, flat or with open slanted sides. The wagon picture is from Romania. I do not know if the man is Gypsy or not.
Roma, Romania: Horsecart. Or a Romanian peasant, not Roma? Not clear.Zoli - book refers to a "Big Halt" law that stopped the nomadic travel some years ago, forcing settlements. Zoli at ____.
See this fine photograph of a caravan in 1911 - at ://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/tradition.htm
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)