Melungeons - Parse for American Roma, Gypsy; Other European, Moor, Native American, Black,

Origins of Melungeons

An Ethnic/Racial Mix.  Which?
Components of a Blend: Difficult to Parse

A Roma heritage may sometimes be claimed by others, who examine histories of population, but not necessarily conform to the oral tradition of some of a mixed group. Is that what has happened with a possible/probable connection of a group known as Melungeons; and a Gypsy or Roma branch within that group. Even a deep root. Whether from enslaved Roma brought to the South Carolina shores, or otherwise entering, even as early as with early explorers, as sailors; or other "undocumented immigrants" collected and dropped.

• Updates:  Melungeon origins by DNA --  South of Sahara African and then White roots 5.26.2912. Melungeon origins.  A DNA study in Tennessee shows connections within narrower sets of ethnic and racial roots:  merely black, south of the Sahara in Africa, and white. See http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120526/NEWS21/305260028/Melungeons-aren-t-who-they-thought

•  Update:  Melungeon Moorish origins 4.18.2011 -- See this site, Islamic in origin, tracing Islamic peoples to the Melungeons, see Moors -- Islamic Roots of Melungeons   Earlier here, we noted "Moors" as among the possible-probable components of the melange of Melungeons, and this site adds detail to the theory. For you to vet.  

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1.  Our start. We read "The Secret Life of Bees," by Sue Monk Kidd; and saw the film, and made connections at The Fodder Site, Mixed Origins, Clues to Religions, Cultures.

We saw a thread among various cultures in different scenes from the book and film: 

a) see the iconic painting of the Black Madonna in the book and film (if you know the story, this is the picture on the honey jars), and ask how it got to a slave-descended family.

b) see the Black carved female figure in the parlor, like an intermediary, a source of inspiration to women in kinds of bondage and suffering from "slavery days;"  and ask who that might be, what blend of African roots and other cultural intersections, reinforcing the principles,

c) see the slave-descendant culture, and slave culture more broadly - how many other groups were enslaved, not just Blacks, and that would have intermingled with other slave groups, including enslaved Gypsy or Roma; and other indentured servants. When freed, who joined up with whom, where did they go.

The American South was and is a complex geneological place. We see traces of other ethnic groups particularly in the dialect of the Old South, Uncle Remus Tales, Translations: Inland Slave Heritage.  Find there traces of the Portuguese in the words used, especially "palaver" that is Portuguese; think of all the Portuguese sailors landing in the south.

2.  We came across a name for one group of mixed heritage, the Melungeons. 

Now mostly in Appalachia, there is a group with a varied background, reflected in the name itself. The Melungeons are named perhaps after the Greek "melan" for Black; or the Portuguese "melungo" for shipmate;  or the Italian "melongeno" for eggplant; the Turkish "melun can" for accursed one; old English "melangin" for guile; or the French "melange" for mixture. See "The Malungean Heritage Association" at ://www.melungeon.org/node/4/. Their first documentation stems from southwern Virginia, bordering on Tennessee; also southern Ohio, parts of Kentucky. Groups like them, or vestiges, are also along the Atlantic Seaboard.

3.  Some find a Roma or Gypsy connection with the Melungeons. 

It is like a missing link, geneologically. How to explain the origins, the broad variation in characteristics, where they came from.  This Roma connection is explored by Linda Griggs in "Patrin," a Roma Journal. The article is "The Black Dutch, German Gypsies, or Chicanere, and Their Relation to the Melungeons," by Linda Griggs.  See ://www.geocities.com/~patrin/melungeon.htm/

With a landing point at the South Carolina coast for many enslaved Roma, see "The Never-Ending Road American Roma (Gypsies), Travellers and "Others," at ://sciway3.net/clark/freemoors/, this makes sense. Start there, many end up in Appalachia.by Henry Burke at two sites --

a.  "Origins of the Appalachian-Melungeon Subculture: A More Plausible Explanation for the Origin of Melungeons." See ://www.coax.net/people/lwf/HRB_MEL.HTM/. and

b. "A Possible End to the Mystery of the Melungeons," at ://www.melungeons.com/articles/mysteryBurke.htm/ 

4.  Other accounts of origins, including some Melungeons themselves, and according to the Melungeon Heritage Society site, however, do not include Roma or Gypsy. 

They name Portuguese and Spanish sailors, Egyptian, India Indian, Native American, Turks, Moors, Jews, Blacks, other European and Middle East. Read the long list of names given to specific groups -  See also "A Brief Overview of the Melungeons" by Wayne Winkler at ://www.melungeon.org/node/4/.

"Dark-skinned, frustratingly European-looking" - and pushed off their purchased land, in an ethnic cleansing effort in Appalachia, see this Google Book, "The Melungeons, the Resurrection of a Proud People: The Untold Story of Ethnic Cleansing in America, " by Robyn Vaughan Kennedy, at ://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=Jqhd3tVSJNkC&dq=melungeon&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=_G_P-73RUk&sig=pFnoL0eaXJIhbixjOvmOa8hfZKU&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result

But to us, outsiders, this Gypsy Roma possible connection adds to the Melungeon Heritage site, not detracts from it. See origins also at  Poland Road Ways, Black Madonna in American South.

The Roma culture is rich in talent and survival skills. Otherwise, they would be gone after a thousand years of persecution.

Do see "The Secret Life of Bees," see ://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416212/.

The book is by Sue Monk Kidd. As you look for possible Roma background, not dispositive but interesting,  see the talent at the stringed instrument, by the character, June Boatwright.  The drive for independence from men, of June and her sister, August Boatwright.  The heritage of the women managing the household, and the men coming and going if they liked, with cultural support for that role, and in many Roma-descended people, a gender ritual separation, that may not just be slavery-related.  It may not just be because men were sold off - it can be part of a larger heritage, and one that enabled survival of a persecuted people through that thousand years.

American Roma.  Shall we open our eyes that we may see.

Currently - Budapest, Hungary - Roma. Still Mainstream Rejects.

Vlach Rom

There is a long tradition of the Vlach Roma, a branch of those migrating from Romania, in Hungary, see ://www.everyculture.com/Europe/Vlach-Gypsies-of-Hungary.html/ Are Magyars related to, or the same as, early Roma? For Vlach culture as it exists in Greece and Romania, see Bogomilia: Vlachs, Nomads, Shepherds. See Bogomilia" Vlachs, Nomads, Shepherds, Roma Roots.

From the everyculture site: The "Vlach" is said to derive from the section of Romania, Wallachia, where they had once been enslaved. Others come from Moldavia, where they also were enslaved. And the term, "Gypsy" comes from the Hungarian, Cigany. "Rom" is used for Vlach gypsies. Other groups: "Boyash" gypsies speak Romanian, and "Romungro" gypsies speak Hungarian. The site offers extensive discussion of other aspects of Roma life in Hungary, history, settlements, economy, kinship, family, socio-politics, religious and expressive culture.

Hungary: New York Times 2/6/2008 - There has been a show of Romany art at Bucharest, at the National Gallery. "The exhibition was the latest nod to Europe's most despised, and this country's largest, minority." Article by Michael Kimmelman. A right-wing group, the Hungarian Guard, had been expected to interfere or demonstrate, but this did not happen. A good sign, but not enough to offset their proto-Nazi stridings, under the guise of "safeguarding national culture and traditions."

This sounds like the rationale for US movements afoot against undocumented immigrants - our country's new "gypsy" targets - need to control and reject for the sake of the national culture idea. Not the ethnicity, the reaction against.

The exhibit itself was, apparently, not a "good" one - disorganized, numbing even, says Mr. Kimmelman. But it had been relegated to "attic galleries" and not the glories of the ones on the main floors. When state industries closed, with the coming of democracy-type government in transition, the Roma were among the first to lose jobs. Roma are 6-10% of the population, but unemployment within that group is over 80%.

President of the Roma Parliament (nongovernmental rights group): Jeno Zsigo. Notes official indifference as resulting in loss of programs for children.

Journalist and Radio producer: Gyorgy Kerenyi. Began first Roma-run radio station, "Radio C'. Notes that the Western Europeans fear large migrations of Roma from Eastern Europe to the west.

Rankism: The self-declared somebodies against the nobodies. A global pandemic since The Beginning? See Look at this face and try not to be warmed: Aging in place Is a place to live, even if that is on the road; meaningful work, and social contact too much for a person to ask. Forced settlement. Government policy. The Pottery Barn Rule. You break it, you own it. Problem is, nobody will own up to this one.

Links

http://gypsiesroma.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default

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ZJUJ793GNTP8

http://www.gypsiesroma.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default/ZJUJ793GNTP8

Current issues: Migrations, Economic Pressures, Global Movements

Conditions. Further update, on the poor vs. progress. This is 3/3/08: Read "On the Margins: Roma and Public Services in Romania, Bulgaria, and Macedonia, With a Supplement on Housing in the Czech Republic," by Ina Zoon, Open Society Institute press 2001. Covers denials of health care, lack of adequate housing, and recommendations.

Migrations. Here is a teaching, resource site with an excellent historical overview of the migration of Roma-Gypsies, from the East to the British Isles, and to US and other continents. //www.travellersinleeds.co.uk/_travellers/HistoryEngland.html. There is a timeline, maps, pictures, a great start for understanding the magnitude of the accomplishment of Gypsies - surviving for millennia, migrating, or going on routes within areas, as they kept on the road.

Like any people, move where it may be better. Look at the conditions documented in the Ina Zoon sourcebook, above.

Like anyone's immigrant grandparents and great-grandparents of whatever background, who came here, or to Canada. How stop the human desire for a life with more health, economic security, a place where families can survive over subsistence / persecution level. A water level concept. Always has been. Immigration happens. And it enriches, if others can let it. Look at the children's pictures at the Travellers In Leeds site.

See this article regarding the Romanian Roma population, set to move wherever it is safer, better. See //www.reuters.com/article/sphereNews/idUSL0932609020070909?sp=true&view=sphere.
The article asks, is the European Union any more prepared, or amenable, to sharing abundance or even sufficiency, with those who have neither, and what is the consequence of not so doing.

Us, US, heed. Immigration is a global issue, self-determination drives are a global issue. A finger in a dike cannot last. Right, right?

Romanian Enslavement - 400 years

This from "Bury Me Standing" - look up the importing of slaves to Transylvania and other areas, including Sibiu, 1445, and including by Vlad Dracul, see Romania Road Ways, Vlad Tepes sites. He brought in 12,000 "Egyptians" to Wallachia, where he ruled, and as slaves. Pope Sixtus IV awarded Stefan the Great with more, as booty for Stefan's contribution to crusades against the Turks. Page 174.

Long history of Gypsy slavery there. Then, after the Sultans prevailed and occupied the ports at the Black Sea, it was slave labor that strengthened the areas. Romanian rulers gift each other with Gypsy families, including Mircea the Old, and including Kalderash gypsies. P.177. Did it begin with Tatars, who perhaps already held them as slaves? Any "unclaimed" Gypsy person on the road, read un-owned, could be taken. Page 178.

Then read of the memory of all this in the present social structure of Romania. See Romania Road Ways. After World War II, refugees seeking asylum in West Germany - say 4% from the Gypsy areas - were let in, but of those, only .02 percent were actually Gypsies. The rest got deported back. Page 213. The statelessness of Gypsies. Page 217.

Holocaust: Little mention of Gypsies. See 243. Some 10,000 t0 80,000, p.253, - many never recorded, happened out in the woods, at ridges, no birth records, death records. Just vanished, with eye-witnesses sometimes by chance left to tell. Contemporary politics and structure: see 246. How forced inhumane conditions, plus cultural re-prioritizing, led to mutual exasperation - p.280 ff

The Kalderash. Need to find out more - a dominant group. Sibiu, other, see p.291. More politics 295 ff. Transnational nature of problem, p. 302

Black Madonnas. Possible Roma Origin for Some? Or Sara la Kali

Saint Sarah, Saint Sara, Sara-la-Kali. Or a Black Madonna.

See an overview of the stories of the Black Madonna at ://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Saint_Sarah/ There, find that there is a servant to the three Mary's, Mary Magdelene, Mary Salome, and Mary "Jacobe". The servant, perhaps, is Sara la Kali, Sara the Black, in some traditions.

Gdansk, Poland. Sara la Kali, patron saint of Roma; or a Black Madonna?

At first thought, this painting was, to us, a "Black Madonna," at the Cathedral in Gdansk, Poland. See Europe Road Ways Black Madonnas.

As a madonna, however, this one has no child; has the sunburst symbolism usually seen for saints, and then there is a crescent shape beneath, and other signs surrounding. If you see no picture, click on the box and it should load for you.



Rather than being a Black Madonna, is this Sara the Black, Sara-la-Kali, patron of the Gypsies, the same as Saint Sara, or different. Get an overview at Bogomilia, A Site for the Unsung, Sara the Black. This does appear to be Sara the Black, so far.



Needed: a translation for the symbols surrounding the painting.



Sara the Black, Sara-la-Kali, is at the heart of Gypsy pilgrimages in France, at several places. See //www.geocities.com/~Patrin/stsm01.htm, and post at Europe Road Ways Themes - Roma, Black Madonna. The stories suggest she was with the Maries finding the empty tomb. Perhaps an Egyptian servant to Mary Mother. Someone who saved other saints in France. Who was she. See a good summary of ideas at NationMaster, ://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Saint-Sarah#Tradition/ There the name of Mary Salome appears, as one of the three Marys at the crucifixion, and later ending up on France with Joseph of Arimathea. The site notes at ://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Salome-%28disciple%29 that Mary Salome was considered a "disciple" (how is this different from the "apostle" idea?). And in the now lost Gospel of the Egyptians, she is also a "disciple." See Nationmaster.



Wikipedia //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Saw_Three_Ships.has a variation of a Romany carol, from a Roma family in Brazil, for "I Saw Three Ships," with only Joseph and Mary on board; but other legends have Sara accompanying Mary.



See //en. There is an old version with those on board being 'Our Saviour Christ and His Ladye.' Do a search for I Saw Three Ships verses, and there is a Google book at //books.google.com/books?id=yWEDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=%22i+saw+three+ships%22+verses&source=web&ots=QJ7dMkJLtq&sig=D9J6esbp9il5ARtTVfKrfOvH1OA#PPA125,M1.



That "ladye" must mean Mary Magdalene, and that would upset some. That version is also at //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Saw_Three_Ships.



And, as a further update to the Salome common name, is this figure of Sara la Kali a a derivation from the Salome story, the woman healer from the hills in the apocryphal Infancy Gospel of James, see Martin Luther's Stove, James' Christmas Prequel, Infancy Gospel of James. Salome: airbrushed out of theology and history. Appears as a name in Mark, at the Crucifixion and witnessing the empty tomb. And in the banned Gospel of James the Just, the Infancy Gospel of Jesus. There, at our presentation of the gospel as a pageant with dialogue, see Salome as the first to be healed by the infant, the first to recognize him, the first to worship. No wonder Rome rejected it, even though it was buttressed to meet dogma requirements in all the virginity ways. With her fiery hand healed by the infant, the Salome of James' attributed account would be highly motivated to stay close and follow. Did she?

Shamans, Daemons and other Guides - "The Golden Compass"; and real Roma, Gypsy Belief Systems

How and why did we evolve from a benign concept of animal guides, companion souls, or daemons; to the malignant. This benign one, the bear, is from our back yard, snacking on sunflower.

Then see "progress" - by so-called advanced civilized institutions that morphed the helpful guides into malignant beings, leading us astray, or doing evil unto us.

Here, note the nice bear concept turned into the evil "hairy one," from our collection of copies of old German prints, all now out of print. The new characterization as bad, and "the hairy one," stems apparently from a mistranslation from the Hebrew by Wycliffe - see .angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/Daemon.html.

The bear is also hairy, but that was not bad until later, apparently.


If you see the film, "The Golden Compass," you will find the concept of guide companions to humans fleshed out. And it relates to the concept and location of the soul.

The soul. The soul. Is it inside us or out, open to interference from the outside, or not.

In the film, "The Golden Compass," see //uk.reuters.com/article/entertainmentNews/idUKL115262120071211; the soul goes with the person, but beside or near, with symbiotic responses, reciprocal; the existence of a soul as guide to independent thought, is to be fostered, or suppressed - a theme in the film.

Click here to see another - a fine daemon found at Gibraltar, looking for his human (that to be another movie) and who attached to this one easily - Gypsies, Roma, Gyptians post.

Daemons. Of interest here is the history of daemons, and if they really relate to Roma - since the film also shows Gyptians with daemons. The characters' souls in the film accompany the people in the form of animals that stay close (except for some exceptions) and, in children, can change form. The soul is not internal in the film. The word "Daemon" is used to refer to the soul-animal - it feels the person's pain, as the person feels the pain inflicted on the daemon. Symbiotic.

These can simply be "familiar spirits." See //www.bartleby.com/68/28/1728.html. Do a search for "daemon" at this site, and see the ancient concepts, including Greek and Egyptian - //www.jungcircle.com/muse/plato.htm. It is like a "genius" concept, an envoy and an interpreter. They can be merely intermediaries. See .angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/Daemon.html.

For contemporary Roma belief, see this Czech Republic website on "Religion Among the Roma" at //romove.radio.cz/en/clanek/18906. Read about the souls surviving death, as in many other religions. Souls are also intermediaries, calling to mind the "daemon" concept of such long standing in the world. Their only "saint" is Sara-la-Kali, see

Questions raised: Are animal guides benign or malignant, or need they be either if they are companion souls, and what is the nature of daemons?

Summary: Many cultures tie wisdom of our fellow sentient beings to our own wellbeing. And the term "daemon" has historical ties with benevolence, guardian angels; at least neutrality, as a go-between, man and the gods,. See the Greek and other cultural references here. So, malevolence and fear came later, with institutional needs for them.

Roma, Gypsies. Shamans and animal symbolism also appear in roma belief, see www.journeyfolki.org.uk/FolkArts/SpiritualityShamanism/tabid/687/Default.asp. There has long been an affinity for working with certain animals, such as the horse and the bear, as trainers and traders, and providers of entertainment, see ://www.geocities.com/~Patrin/occupations.htmm (scroll down to animal training).

CONTEMPORARY AND TRADITIONAL DAEMONS - secular and religious. Several applications.

Computer Daemon: In our computer world, a daemon is a program running in the background. See Unix reference at ://www.freebsd.org/copyright/daemon.html. The site addresses the negative connotations that the term "daemon" or "demon" now have:

The Unix handbook, says the site, says: daemon is the older form of the word, a daemon does not itself tilt toward good or evil, but instead "serves to define the person's character." Other cultures, here the Greek, used the term for a personal guardian angel function - with "eudaemonia" meaning "the state of being helped or protected by a kindly spirit."

So, Unix uses the term to cast itself in that role. Hear! Hear! Well done. If you are not a geek, go to Wikipedia at ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(computer_software).

The "ae" in daemon is a digraph, linguistically. See //www.bartleby.com/68/44/1844.html. If the letters are connected into one form, they become a ligature. See ://www.bartleby.com/68/52/3652.html. You knew that.

Biblical Demons: Azazel is a name used on several occasions. Read about it at at ://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/articleview.asp?Post=100; www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=A&artid=2203. See also Hello, Fodder, Scapegoats post. The history of "scapegoat" and the mistranslation of "Azazel" are addressed there. So much on a mis-application of a concept.

Greek demons. See ://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-149915/daimon. A Platonic sense of demon is as an intermediary between man and gods. See www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/629.

Judeo-Christian. The demon becomes malignant. See www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/629; and //www.angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/Daemon.html

Native Americans. Start on the topic by reading about Native American animal spiritual guide concepts the Manataka Indian Council, //www.manataka.org/page291.html.

Gypsies as Cultural Fodder - A Collection of Literary References As They Come

Some attitudes are conveyed as normal just because they are interjected so casually in other things. We absorb. For example, Gypsies as culturally expendable, of no intrinsic worth, so much "other" as to be easily trod under, without consequence. Fodder. See Hello, Fodder. On Typecasting and Choice: Fodder Role.

1. Novel. "The Archivist's Story," by Travis Holland, Dial Press 2007, at page 157. The place is a dacha, or woodsy vacation house, outside Moscow, about 1939, in the middle of Stalin's purges of authors, novelists, poets - imprisonment, death. The main character is an archivist, Pavel, whose work is to sort through and catalogue works of literary prisoners, those works destined ultimately for the incinerator, and the prisoners also probably to death. We join him with friends on a small holiday. A Moscovite with seniority as to position and privilege arrives, and jokes about a disagreement with his wife on the way: Fair use quote

" 'She thinks I ran a family of Gypsies off the road on purpose. She accuses me of hating Gypsies, which is a lie of course. It's just that I'm not the best driver." Maxim Andrevich slaps the countertop, 'Glasses, if you please, ' he tells Victor (not the main character here). 'Well, where shall we start, gentlemen? Whisky? Vodka?'"

Andaman Sea Gypsies - Burmese or Myanmar, Peaceable, Disappearing Reality, Compare Fictional Gyptians of "Golden Compass" film?

 Gypsies and Water Cultures

Real and Fictional

Update on the Andamans,
The film, "The Golden Compass," see post at Gypsies, Roma, "Gyptians", features a water-nomad Gypsy culture, a tribe on the canals of Great Britain. That apparently is fiction - we find no authority so far for a water-borne Gypsy culture in Eastern or Western Europe.

Such a culture may still exist in Burma, or Myanmar, however. See Phuket Magazine's article on an indigenous sea-nomad people, "Endangered Idyll? Andaman Sea Gypsies Live, Work And Play On The Water, But Is This Ancient Way of Life Now At Risk?" at //www.phuketmagazine.com/html/PM%20Issues/Vol.14.7/Endangered_Idyll.htm.

Andaman. 

By way of update (this is February 2010), the Andaman and Nicobar Islands are shown on a map at the BBC's article, Last speaker of ancient language of Bo dies in India, at  ://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8498534.stm/.

Apparently, this last speaker of the Bo language of the Andaman Islands was Boa Sr - the Andamans being one of the most "linguistically diverse" areas of the world.  The language roots stem from pre-Neolithic times; African roots?  The article posits, but has no further information.  The Voga site suggests southeast Asia instead.  The woman's name is Boa Sr.  There is a website called The Vanishing Voices of the Great Andamanese (Voga), see ://www.andamanese.net/.  See photos, gallery, read the language phonetically at the site.

With some four main groupings within the Andamanese, and linguistic differences among them, two of the languages had already vanished.

Groups:  All but the Sentinelese have contracted outside illnesses from contacts with outsiders

• Great Andamanese - maybe 50 remain, many of which are children, on Strait Island. Capital:  St. Blair (this Great Andamanese group is Boa Sr's group)

• Onge - maybe several hundred

• Sentinelese - no contact, resist intervention.  

• Jarawa - about 250, live in the forests of Middle Andaman

Burma's Sea Gypsies are The Salons (several spellings -Salone, Salong, etc.)

They refer to themselves as the Moken or Mawken.

Here is an extensive site about this group, known as Sea Gypsies, still found from Philippines to Borneo, and from Thailand to Burma (country names not updated in the article), see ://www.projectmaje.org/gypsies.htm/  This is a compendium of articles.

"Freely roaming the ocean in small boats from birth to death, living simply off its riches, a Southeast Asian people seem as mythical as mermaids. ***"

Are they connected at all with Gypsies, Roma?

No, says ://www.projectmaje.org/gypsies.htm/  The term "Sea Gypsies" instead refers to the nomadic lifestyle.

Cultural Skills; Ecological Wisdom. 

Their knowledge of the sea and waves, and signs, led those on shore or able to get to it to flee to higher ground and safety before the devastating tsunami in 2005. See the CBS account, updated from the original in 2005, at www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/18/60minutes/main681558.shtml. Others already at sea saw signs and headed to deeper water and were safe there. Read about the Veddas - they also have deep ecologically sound knowledge, see://vedda.org/1-who.htm.

Beliefs. 

They speak of, "the wave that eats people." A Tsunami idea? Then the earth is reborn - like the Noah story? Apparently legends among them warn of seven waves, and the first irregular one brought the legend to life.

Location. 

How does this gibe with the Andaman Islands location in the BBC article?

The area is near Kawthaung, at the Mergui Archipelago - or the Surin Islands. People with various names such as Mokken, Selung, Urak Lawoi, Moken, and many other names in the article.

Origin. 

They may stem from the forest-dwelling "Veddas" of India, see://vedda.org/index.htm, the home page site for Sri Lanka's Veddas or Wanniyalaeto. There are maybe 2000 left by now, and on some 200-500 boats. There are also coastal Veddas, see ://vedda.org/seligmann-coastal-veddas.htm. More cultures - not only the Moken, but the Veddas - being let go. Shall we wake up here and preserve ourselves?

The Vedda, however, took to the sea for economic reasons, and are distinguished from the Moken, see ://www.projectmaje.org/gypsies.htm/.  Regardless of connections to each other, and a no-connection (perhaps?) to the gypsies-roma-romani that migrated from Asia (probably) to eastern Europe, we endanger ourselves when we let any group dwindle and die.  Knowledge, lore, perspectives, all needed, is that so?

Language. 

Is this the same as the languages noted in the BBC article about Boa Sr?

The language is "Austronesian" with some Thai, Burmese. So much not known. See more info at ://www.trv.net/trv98/culture/gentlepeople.htm. Then see more on the language at www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/18/60minutes/main681558_page3.shtml. Absent from the language are equivalents of "want," or "take," "goodbye," "hello," or "worry." No greetings. Correction on the idea of "take" - the site says you give or take but you do not want, all is give and take? Without separate culpability attached to take?

Can we learn from these brethren of ours, or not. See a "yes" at ://vedda.org/glpieris.htm. If we have nothing to learn from the accumulated wisdom of those who do not accumulate property, if the absence of property makes them valueless, let them go. Go ahead.

Then read this site, by R. Chandrasoma, concerned about romanticizing these non-Aryan "primitives" - the Veddas - site found at at ://www.lankalibrary.com/cul/veddha/veddha_12.htm. The claims are that the last pure Veddas disappeared long ago, those left are fake or so diluted in racial stock (some such concept) as to make preservation meaningless.

Next interest:   Southern Iraq's Marsh Arabs.  Connected?

The Gyptians of "The Golden Compass", 2007 film - Concepts

Role in film, "The Golden Compass," for Daemons, Animal Guides. This topic may be new to people just beginning to look seriously at gypsy culture. A belief in animal guides of some kind appears in many cultures world-wide. The concept of animal familiars appears to have a role also in Roma belief, see post at Gypsies, Roma, Gyptians - Daemon information post.

However, given the distinctions and taboos about unclean and clean animals, see //www.tribe-roman-morga.com/religion.html, not just any animal would take that role. Need to learn more here. In the film, the animal guides or externalized souls help define the character, set it in clear perspective. If that is part of Romani religion, not clear yet.

In the film, the demon is kindly when the person is kindly, cruel when the person is cruel.

Here, at Gibraltar, is the brother of the daemon of the film character Mrs. Coulter. He is wondering sadly what went wrong with her anyway, that also pulled bis brother down.


Religion. Good site here, for many topics. Go to http://www.geocities.com/~Patrin/beliefs.htm.

Origin. Where did the Gypsies come from. The name "Gyptians" has been used for Gypsies, and suggests an understanding of origins believed in the past. The Gypsies are tcalled that in the film, "The Golden Comass. In the Middle Ages, Gypsies were believed to have come from Egypt, thus the name "Gypsy." See www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/gypsies.htm. Deeper study, however, shows origins in India. For a comprehensive history, see //www.geocities.com/~Patrin/history.htm. The amount of fact presented in the film depiction, however, is debatable as to the water-life.

Film Gyptians are real Gypsies in important respects. In the 2007 movie, "The Golden Compass," there are Gyptians - a group assuming a role similar to that of Gypsies, traveling in clans, some settled, very much apart, in lifestyle and beliefs, from the mainstream that persecutes as heretics any who think freely. See "The Golden Compass" at any of the sites that come up with a search for it.

Water Culture? Not European.
The "Golden Compass film group of "Gyptians" (from the book series, including "Northern Lights,") live on waterways in England or Scotland, and that apparently makes them fictional. I find no authority for that way of life there, as water people, nomads of the canals, wayfarers, even with the full panoply of Hollywood lineage in the film. See //www.hisdarkmaterials.org/srafopedia/index.php/Gyptian. Use this site also to look up individuals, including John Faa, but check out what is fiction and what is fact - what authority over the Gyptians, Gypsies in Scotland in the 16th Century here, did Faa have. Wikipedia so far says not real, see //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyptians.

Read the British reviews, and news of current political and employment issues regarding real Gypsies at //eupolitics.einnews.com/news/uk-roma-minority.

John Faa - A real 18th Century traditional Gypsy hero in his way, and a character takes on some of his bio in the movie. Hear the ballad at www.contemplator.com/child/johnnyfa.htm. See the post here about Johnny Faa at Gypsies, Roma - Johnny Faa.

The Samoyede or Samoyeds - In the movie, fighting folk of the far north. In real life, Asian nomads whose breed of dog is recognized by the American Kennel Club, see www.akc.org/breeds/samoyed/index.cfm. Read about the Samoyede or Samoyeds and their Dogs at //www.samoyed.org/samoyede_people.html. Here is their ancient migration path across Asia - at //uralica.com/samoyed.htm. More of the culture at www.britannica.com/eb/topic-723912/Taymyr-Samoyed

The taking of Gyptian babies - by the Goblers - those outsiders who took Gyptian children not only from the Gyptians who travel, but from the Gyptians who are "settled" as well, those who do not travel. So - the Gyptians here are divided just as other land Gypsies, into the travelers and the settled.

Stealing children is not a new theme for history or fairy tale, and some have the Gypsies making changelings, another topic another day. For contemporary: See this site for an account of the acceptability of the practice as long as it is for the good of the children, but who decides and on what grounds. To save the children?? //www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/Trefil.htm. See the Romanian orphanage overflow, at this site, and do a search for "gypsy" and a Gypsy child being smuggled, how many more or is this it? at://iwpr.net/?p=bcr&s=f&o=247598&apc_state=henibcr2000

Do see the film - For a change, see Hollywood's Gypsies as heroes. A theme is promotion of independent analysis, conclusions, thinking? Dust plays a role. The special dust promotes free thinking. Interesting idea - A good dust-up. Dust is already part of our language. Made from dust. Dust to dust. Religious. Dust bunnies. The housekeeping daemon. Or, a way to the animal guide concept here - your dust bunny as your guide. Dust R Us. Stardust and Hoagie Carmichael. What is more mainstream than dust? Fairy dust. Do we want our children's thinking to be free of free? Are we so afraid that if they think and research, they may find out things.